| --- Log opened Wed May 28 11:02:16 2008 | ||
| wwoods | unfortunately the wiki no longer allows raw HTML | 11:02 |
|---|---|---|
| wwoods | so our old meeting notes on the wiki are all broken | 11:02 |
| jds2001 | maybe we could have someone take notes? | 11:02 |
| jds2001 | arrrggghh | 11:02 |
| wwoods | I've got my own notes from more recent meetings | 11:02 |
| jds2001 | i can fix some of that | 11:02 |
| jds2001 | there's something that does HTML to MW tables | 11:03 |
| -!- dwmw2_HEL is now known as dwmw2_gone | 11:03 | |
| jds2001 | not perfect, but better than nothing | 11:03 |
| wwoods | I'll post notes from this meeting to fedora-test-list afterward | 11:03 |
| wwoods | raw logs should go somewhere but I don't think the wiki is the best place | 11:03 |
| * mdomsch_ did a FTBFS run last week; 350 failures on x86_64, 321 on i386; 5702 SRPMS in total | 11:04 | |
| jds2001 | yeah, there's talk about having a logbot in here that can automagically post stuff. | 11:04 |
| jeremy | someone posted a script to do irc logs -> mediawiki formatting on infrastructure-list | 11:04 |
| jds2001 | yeah ianweller did i think | 11:04 |
| mdomsch_ | I haven't mailed out results as I need to teach my scripts to do the recursive FTBFS bug following | 11:04 |
| wwoods | wtf. alarm just went off | 11:04 |
| jds2001 | he just hacked irclog2html | 11:04 |
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| jds2001 | mdomsch_: anything that shows up two months in a row probably needs some attention. | 11:05 |
| wwoods | no idea what that was. anyway, sorry | 11:05 |
| wwoods | mdomsch_: FTBFS? | 11:05 |
| mdomsch_ | jds2001, that would be most of them :-( | 11:05 |
| jds2001 | failure to build from source | 11:05 |
| wwoods | ahhh | 11:05 |
| mdomsch_ | aka my "rawhide rebuilds" | 11:06 |
| wwoods | coffee has not reached the abbreviation-parsing part of my brain yet | 11:06 |
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| mdomsch_ | my question for fesco needs to be "if they aren't fixed before F10 alpha, do we drop them?" | 11:07 |
| wwoods | mdomsch_: are those results on f-d-l or anything? | 11:07 |
| mdomsch_ | wwoods, not yet | 11:07 |
| mdomsch_ | I like to list the packages that have bugs filed | 11:07 |
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| jds2001 | mdomsch_: my vote is yes, but that doesn't mean anything :) | 11:08 |
| wwoods | I'm in favor of dropping packages that can't be rebuilt | 11:08 |
| mdomsch_ | but with the new FTBFS bug, that becomes a recursive operation | 11:08 |
| mdomsch_ | which I haven't mastered in bugzilla querying yet | 11:08 |
| wwoods | if we can't rebuild a package, we can't (easily) fix bugs in it | 11:08 |
| mdomsch_ | yep | 11:09 |
| jds2001 | what is the intersection of FTBFS and the what's left on the gcc4.3 trackers? | 11:09 |
| mdomsch_ | jds2001, not sure, as I made FTBFS block on the trackers... | 11:09 |
| mdomsch_ | hence the recursion | 11:09 |
| mdomsch_ | https://bugzilla.redhat.com/showdependencytree.cgi?id=440169 | 11:09 |
| mdomsch_ | https://bugzilla.redhat.com/showdependencytree.cgi?id=440169&hide_resolved=1 | 11:10 |
| wwoods | are there keywords / whiteboard tags on those auto-generated bugs? | 11:11 |
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| jds2001 | they all start with FTBFS and block the FTBFS tracker | 11:12 |
| wwoods | it'd be pretty easy to search for bugs with 'FTBFS', then check all those components for bugs with 'failed massrebuild' | 11:12 |
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| wwoods | anyway, yeah, let's say that Official QA Position is that packages that can't be built should be dropped if the maintainer can't fix them by.. Beta? | 11:13 |
| jds2001 | +1 | 11:14 |
| wwoods | mdomsch_: is that an appropriate deadline? | 11:14 |
| mdomsch_ | +1 | 11:14 |
| jds2001 | we'll have to make an exception for things like GCC upgrades and such I guess. | 11:14 |
| jds2001 | but then we have to balance that with the fact that we have non-buildable packages. | 11:15 |
| wwoods | gcc upgrades? | 11:15 |
| jds2001 | say the gcc4.3 thing - it'll happen again :) | 11:15 |
| jds2001 | maybe not for F10, but at some point in the future. | 11:16 |
| wwoods | well, yeah, but when it happens we give people a few *months* to fix the problem | 11:16 |
| mcepl | yeah, and my colleague is now planning libtool upgrade -- we will have a lot of fun ;-) | 11:16 |
| wwoods | not to mention the fact that we have key gcc / glibc developers providing docs and assistance | 11:16 |
| wwoods | leaving a package unbuildable for several months without any effort is inexcusable | 11:17 |
| jds2001 | +1 | 11:17 |
| wwoods | certainly exceptions can be made for stuff that turns out to be really tricky | 11:17 |
| mdomsch_ | exceptions, but for a limited time... | 11:17 |
| wwoods | but only if the maintainer has at least *attempted* to fix the problem | 11:18 |
| wwoods | right | 11:18 |
| jds2001 | We should take over FESco with QA folks since no one else seems to be interested :) | 11:18 |
| mdomsch_ | we can't expect people to have a F6 chroot much longer | 11:18 |
| wwoods | heh! oh yeah, forgot to nominate myself for FESCo | 11:18 |
| wwoods | although I already get a vote as QA lead, which kind of makes me a de-facto board member | 11:19 |
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| wwoods | anyway | 11:21 |
| wwoods | let's talk about the wiki for a bit | 11:21 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | wiki gardening | 11:21 | |
| jds2001 | all of the testcases need to be fixed. | 11:21 |
| wwoods | I've been gradually repairing dead links ["Page/Name"] -> [[Page/Name]] here and there | 11:21 |
| wwoods | but, yeah | 11:21 |
| wwoods | there's a lot of stuff that's no good anymore | 11:22 |
| wwoods | what's wrong with the testcases? | 11:22 |
| jds2001 | they just all say 1. instead of of 1, 2, 3, 4 etc | 11:22 |
| jds2001 | not a huge deal - but nested lists (if we have any) are the fail. | 11:22 |
| wwoods | boo | 11:23 |
| wwoods | is it all numbered lists, or just nested ones? | 11:23 |
| jds2001 | all numbered lists aren't numbered right. | 11:24 |
| jds2001 | nested lists are epic fail | 11:24 |
| wwoods | boo | 11:24 |
| wwoods | boo-urns | 11:25 |
| wwoods | so, yeah, we need to do some cleanup | 11:25 |
| wwoods | which is fine, since a lot of those QA pages were getting old and out-of-date anyway | 11:25 |
| wwoods | so, yeah, start with QA and work your way down. | 11:25 |
| wwoods | We probably need to fix the TestCases / TestPlans category pages too | 11:25 |
| wwoods | So I'm going to be working on sprucing up the wiki quite a bit, I think | 11:26 |
| wwoods | are there any areas that we really need better documentation on? | 11:26 |
| jds2001 | well, we need some stuff on snake | 11:26 |
| jds2001 | and probably pungi-in-mock as well. | 11:27 |
| wwoods | mm, yeah, SNAKE docs would be good.. as part of the Release Testing stuff | 11:27 |
| * jds2001 has written the pungi-in-mock stuff on my blog, but it probably needs cleaned up, etc. | 11:27 | |
| wwoods | that also falls under release-testing | 11:27 |
| wwoods | I think we might need some bodhi-for-testers docs too | 11:27 |
| jds2001 | yep | 11:27 |
| wwoods | I wonder if we can get some wiki metroids | 11:29 |
| jds2001 | im sure we can | 11:29 |
| wwoods | new pages created, old pages edited, etc. | 11:29 |
| wwoods | I'd definitely like to give people some serious positive karma for writing new testcases | 11:29 |
| jds2001 | well.... | 11:30 |
| jds2001 | User ID:15 | 11:30 |
| jds2001 | Number of edits:35 | 11:30 |
| jds2001 | so they're already kept somehow somewhere | 11:30 |
| wwoods | right | 11:30 |
| wwoods | I'll talk to the infra/websites team about it | 11:31 |
| wwoods | once we figure out how to get good metroids from our major work areas | 11:32 |
| wwoods | we'll need to put together some leaderboard / stat tracker deal | 11:32 |
| jds2001 | And the testcases should get bonus points for coming with ks snippets :) | 11:32 |
| wwoods | or maybe that just needs to be part of FAS | 11:32 |
| wwoods | oh def | 11:32 |
| jds2001 | is it possible for snake to do a modular kickstart? i.e. I want this piece, that piece, and the other piece merged together into one ks. | 11:33 |
| wwoods | oh ho | 11:33 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | SNAKE magic | 11:34 | |
| wwoods | originally (in snake-0.8), yes | 11:34 |
| wwoods | we didn't use kickstarts at all - the templates were python scripts that generated kickstarts | 11:34 |
| wwoods | and there were "plugins" which were python snippets that ran when the kickstart was being generated | 11:34 |
| wwoods | and did stuff like: if tree.timestamp < XXX: commandline.append("noipv6") | 11:35 |
| wwoods | or similar | 11:35 |
| jds2001 | hmm, that's a bit of a higher barrier to entry to writing them, but why di d it change? | 11:35 |
| wwoods | to mutate the kickstart/commandline based on properties of the tree/ks/machine | 11:35 |
| * jds2001 needs to learn python - I just need to sit down and do something productive with it. | 11:35 | |
| wwoods | it was too complicated for anyone to write templates | 11:35 |
| wwoods | so we ditched it | 11:35 |
| wwoods | but! jlaska has been talking about adding the plugin support back in | 11:36 |
| wwoods | (and support for python templates) | 11:36 |
| wwoods | we also needed to break the plugins into two pieces - the condition and the action | 11:36 |
| jds2001 | if you could have some doc that says "this is how you write templates for a non-python wizard" that would be doable. | 11:37 |
| jlaska | wwoods: yeah, we had a good bit of template development internally ... but it was removed from the upstream code | 11:37 |
| wwoods | well, the goal would be to use plain kickstarts as templates | 11:37 |
| wwoods | but then have plugins to mutate them | 11:37 |
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| wwoods | it'd be nice to be able to have one plugin that appended something like: "%post echo export SNAKE_SERVER=my.snake.server > /etc/profile.d/snake.sh" | 11:38 |
| wwoods | to every generated kickstart | 11:38 |
| wwoods | which we *used* to have | 11:38 |
| jlaska | wwoods: plugins aren't really needed anymore | 11:38 |
| wwoods | oh? | 11:38 |
| wwoods | because I keep needing to add stuff to all my kickstarts | 11:38 |
| jlaska | at least ... there may be alternatives that I've been using | 11:38 |
| wwoods | what're the alternatives? | 11:39 |
| jlaska | additionally ... trees and machines can all accept custom cmdline args (and RFE kickstart) | 11:39 |
| poelcat | what is the difference between a 'kickstart' and a 'template' ... or does it even matter? | 11:39 |
| jlaska | poelcat: they both produce the same thing | 11:39 |
| jlaska | but come from 2 different "source codes" | 11:39 |
| jlaska | 1) being a plain/text file | 11:40 |
| jlaska | 2) another being a python script that returns a snake PyKickstart object | 11:40 |
| jlaska | if that makes sense | 11:40 |
| jds2001 | oh, btw i just realized something | 11:41 |
| jlaska | poelcat: one method is dead simple and another provides programatic flexibility by-way-of python and pykickstart | 11:42 |
| jds2001 | i added RHEL to my snake server - does Fedora anaconda silently ignore instnum or bomb on it as unknown? | 11:42 |
| wwoods | jlaska: okay, so how do you solve the problem of wanting to add a new section to all kickstarts generated by your snake-server? | 11:42 |
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| jlaska | jds2001: F-8 and newer ignores "key" iirc | 11:42 |
| * jds2001 hasnt tried yet, but that's a great plugin | 11:42 | |
| jlaska | wwoods: use %ksinclude with your txt templates, and I add a logic to my snake PyKickstart RHEL base object | 11:43 |
| wwoods | jlaska: RSN we're going to want to add, you know, a %pre that starts up a log-monitor | 11:43 |
| wwoods | jlaska: but you still have to add the %ksinclude line to all your kickstarts | 11:43 |
| wwoods | so if you want, you know, default install with log monitoring and default install without log monitoring | 11:43 |
| jlaska | potentially ... unless you've previously defined that | 11:43 |
| wwoods | that's two separate ks entries | 11:43 |
| jlaska | it's all how you want to define your inventory of kickstarts | 11:44 |
| jlaska | I'm open to adding back in the plugin stuff if demand requires it ... but we can talk implementation specifics on #snake or in snake trac tickets if you like | 11:45 |
| wwoods | yeah | 11:45 |
| wwoods | we'll talk more about that some other time | 11:45 |
| wwoods | I go back and forth on the plugin thing, and right now it seems very useful | 11:45 |
| jds2001 | in reality, there is one ks snippet per test case | 11:46 |
| jds2001 | and you can execute multiple test cases with one install, obviously | 11:46 |
| jlaska | wwoods: there's a ticket in the works on adding yum-style snake-server plugin support which would be more flexible and scratch the itch you're referring to | 11:46 |
| jds2001 | it helps to be able to abstract that. | 11:46 |
| wwoods | you could just do %ksinclude default-pre.ks in all kickstarts, and default to having an empty default-pre.ks | 11:46 |
| jlaska | wwoods: bingo ... that's what I've done as well | 11:46 |
| wwoods | but I don't know where default-pre.ks would live | 11:46 |
| wwoods | anyway, yeah, we'll talk later | 11:48 |
| wwoods | so this week's priority remains: wiki cleanups and improvements | 11:48 |
| wwoods | anything else we should discuss? | 11:49 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | misc. | 11:49 | |
| wwoods | I'm gonna take that as a "no" | 11:50 |
| wwoods | thanks for your time, dudes | 11:50 |
| -!- Topic for #fedora-meeting: Fedora QA | misc. | 11:50 | |
| -!- Topic set by wwoods [n=wwoods@nat/redhat/x-938128b5b7436216] [Wed May 28 11:49:36 2008] | 11:50 | |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule | 11:51 | |
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| quaid | cool | 15:01 |
| * quaid waits one more minnit | 15:01 | |
| Sparks | :) | 15:01 |
| * ianweller lurks | 15:02 | |
| Sparks | quaid: I added a few specifics to the agenda so I wouldn't forget | 15:02 |
| quaid | good | 15:02 |
| quaid | ianweller: wise :) | 15:02 |
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| * jsmith is half-here | 15:03 | |
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| quaid | ok then | 15:04 |
| * quaid gives one more minute so he can catch his breath | 15:05 | |
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| quaid | ok! | 15:07 |
| * quaid had to get headphones, Harry Potter battling death eaters on audio CD in the back ground is distracting | 15:07 | |
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| quaid | <meeting> | 15:07 |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg -- welcomes | 15:07 | |
| quaid | ... and welcome | 15:08 |
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| quaid | roll call for easy record keeping, if you are here ... | 15:09 |
| quaid | <- Karsten is here | 15:09 |
| jmbuser | JohnBabich | 15:09 |
| Sparks | Eric Christensen | 15:09 |
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| * quaid is getting agenda up on his screen | 15:10 | |
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| jmbuser | JohnBabich the psychic | 15:10 |
| quaid | heh | 15:10 |
| * ianweller lurks | 15:10 | |
| quaid | ok, I saw couf join | 15:10 |
| quaid | and jsmith is half-here | 15:10 |
| quaid | stickster_afk is at a booth or dinner or something | 15:10 |
| * jsmith wishes he were eating dinner | 15:11 | |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo rollin' in the hood -- Elections! | 15:11 | |
| quaid | cool, we have everyone here to discuss elections, governance, and the like | 15:11 |
| quaid | paul posted a bit on list | 15:11 |
| quaid | http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-May/msg00093.html | 15:11 |
| * quaid waits a moment for others to read the thread | 15:12 | |
| quaid | ok | 15:13 |
| Sparks | There was also some additional conversation that was had but it didn't go much further | 15:13 |
| quaid | some differeint ideas there, ditt and sparks | 15:13 |
| quaid | what I propose is this: | 15:14 |
| quaid | i. we discuss until :35 at the latest | 15:14 |
| quaid | ii. see if we have a consensus | 15:14 |
| quaid | iii. if not, push the discussion contents back to the list and continue | 15:14 |
| Sparks | +1 | 15:15 |
| jmbuser | +1 | 15:15 |
| quaid | I started the whole thing off because we are looking at how we govern in Fedora, and I think it makes sense to review on a subproj basis if we are following a formula that works for us or not | 15:15 |
| jmbuser | continue | 15:16 |
| * quaid could talk for 20 minutes if he isn't careful :) | 15:17 | |
| quaid | simple idea: | 15:17 |
| quaid | how do we turn from "the leader" into "a leader" and "A group of leaders"? | 15:17 |
| quaid | eol | 15:17 |
| jmbuser | We already seem to have a pretty motivated group of people | 15:18 |
| jsmith | quaid: People don't learn to lead by watching a leader. They learn to lead by having adversity thrown at them | 15:18 |
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| jsmith | The person you call "the leader" is simply the one that's experienced the most adversity, and done the best at getting through it | 15:19 |
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| quaid | what is interesting to me is this ... we have a process we've defined, and we have a way we've grown organically ... and they don't necessarily match | 15:19 |
| jmbuser | This is not that unusual | 15:19 |
| quaid | do we fix the process then? dissolve it? | 15:20 |
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| Sparks | In my opinion, I think the Steering Committee is too bulky for where I see the DocsProject is currently at | 15:20 |
| jmbuser | Planned processes and the way things actually work out are usually two different things | 15:21 |
| quaid | spoleeba: you might want to throw in here -- discussing governance of Docs, how to work with SIGs, etc. | 15:21 |
| jmbuser | The solution is to have the process reflect reality | 15:21 |
| quaid | spoleeba: or you might rightly say, "not my place, proceed" :) | 15:21 |
| Sparks | If we defined a chair and a vice-chair I think they could "steer" the process | 15:21 |
| quaid | reality is -- interestd people show up at a meeting time, on list, etc. | 15:21 |
| quaid | Sparks: I see that, as a group, Fedora appreciates where there is a named leader or two or three so people know who to "go to" | 15:22 |
| Sparks | Exactly | 15:22 |
| Sparks | But I don't think we have the following necessary for a committee to lead the project | 15:22 |
| * jsmith agrees | 15:23 | |
| quaid | oh good | 15:23 |
| quaid | that's how I've been feeling :) | 15:23 |
| jsmith | In fact, I'd gladly give up my seat on the said commitee | 15:23 |
| quaid | the committee weight is a bit heavy to maneuver with | 15:23 |
| jsmith | (as I've been practically worthless lately) | 15:23 |
| quaid | or | 15:23 |
| quaid | make it "opt in" | 15:24 |
| quaid | you want in, you are in | 15:24 |
| quaid | you want out, just say you are disappearing for a while | 15:24 |
| quaid | and let people "breathe" that way as per their life | 15:24 |
| Sparks | That works | 15:24 |
| quaid | I've been fortunate to have more Fedora time now, but I've always had weeks or months where I disappear into RHT work | 15:24 |
| Sparks | We, as a project, should be able to say "we want this"... and we already do, really | 15:25 |
| quaid | yep | 15:25 |
| quaid | as for picking chair/v-chair stuff ... ideas that occur to me are: | 15:25 |
| quaid | * have that as a general subproj election | 15:25 |
| quaid | * have the opt-in FDSCo do it for everyone else | 15:25 |
| quaid | sorry, that was 1 and 2 | 15:25 |
| jmbuser | "Is Fedora Docs going to remain a project or become a SIG?" is the question to ask, in my opinion | 15:26 |
| quaid | 3. don't elect, just make sure things move around often enough | 15:26 |
| quaid | 4. don't elect but have a clear process to kick out people who become tyrants | 15:26 |
| * jmbuser is always out of phase lately - sorry | 15:26 | |
| quaid | jmbuser: now, there is a way to ask that question, but I think it is already answered | 15:26 |
| jsmith | Let me throw out one other question... is this a case of "much ado about nothing"? | 15:27 |
| quaid | I support the general scheme that spoleeba (Jef) has proposed. | 15:27 |
| quaid | in that one, Docs is clearly a subproject | 15:27 |
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| quaid | and each SIG has a docs role to fill, with that person connecting back up to Docs the subproj | 15:27 |
| jsmith | I mean, has the FDSCo really been that bad? | 15:27 |
| quaid | jsmith: not bad, just ... | 15:27 |
| quaid | jsmith: we said we'd have elections and stuff | 15:28 |
| jsmith | quaid: And we have... at least I think I got elected somehow | 15:28 |
| quaid | jsmith: so we need to be clear what we are doing, for those in the proj but not involved in leading, etc. | 15:28 |
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| quaid | jsmith: I mean, it's time again for elections :) | 15:28 |
| Sparks | +1 to quaid's list... | 15:28 |
| quaid | turnout has been not very big nor grown across elections; in fact, I think it might have declined | 15:28 |
| Sparks | I think we should "elect" or "appoint" a leader of some sort | 15:28 |
| quaid | how about this as a scheme: | 15:29 |
| jsmith | FSSCo senate? | 15:29 |
| quaid | * FDSCo is opt-in, consisting of all who want to be involved in steering | 15:29 |
| quaid | * FDSCo has the charge to make sure leadership remains relevant | 15:29 |
| quaid | * FDSCo decides to elect or appoint | 15:29 |
| quaid | * If project members have problems with any of that, the answer is obviously to opt-in to the process and help from within the steering | 15:30 |
| jsmith | +1 | 15:30 |
| jsmith | WORKSFORME | 15:30 |
| Sparks | +1 | 15:30 |
| * quaid is thinking it looks OK and quite a bit like what we do already :) | 15:30 | |
| Sparks | It is... only less strict... more flexible | 15:31 |
| jsmith | quaid: And yes, if you become an evil tyrant we'll kick you out ;-) | 15:31 |
| jmbuser | In that anyone who wants to be on the steering committee generally gets elected, it doesn't seem to be much different | 15:31 |
| * quaid is happy we found a way to make Sparks' vote official, too :) | 15:31 | |
| jsmith | be right back | 15:31 |
| jmbuser | than what you propose | 15:32 |
| quaid | jmbuser: right, except we artificially constrained the SCo before, so people who cannot be active are "taking slots" from people who can be active right now; so yeah, better | 15:32 |
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| RodrigoPadula | hello guys! | 15:33 |
| jmbuser | In other words, people get elected, then their life situation changes, then someone else becomes active between elections? | 15:33 |
| spoleeba | let me ask this.. do you have a handle on the number of active people are in the fas groups you think should have a say in the direction of docs? | 15:33 |
| quaid | I don't think so | 15:33 |
| quaid | that said, | 15:33 |
| quaid | most such people tend to come in there anyway in some fashion | 15:33 |
| quaid | but we are not well represented from certain groups | 15:34 |
| spoleeba | is that number big enough to support an election? elections on make sense if you need representative governance..versus referendum | 15:34 |
| spoleeba | if sigs grow doc roles...then maybe you'll need elections of some sort | 15:35 |
| quaid | +1 | 15:37 |
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| quaid | when it gets to where we have some actual contention to elect against :) | 15:37 |
| quaid | right now it's like a girls club electing "officers" | 15:38 |
| quaid | which was important | 15:38 |
| quaid | back when we needed to make it clear RHT wasn't puppetizing things | 15:38 |
| jmbuser | What about high-level decisions like not documenting closed-binary workarounds? | 15:38 |
| quaid | now that we all know that RHT barely notices Docs (j/k ... | 15:38 |
| quaid | jmbuser: where it's not clear from the overall project, SCo should be able to handle that | 15:39 |
| jmbuser | Encouraging FOSS solutions instead? | 15:39 |
| quaid | well, if in the future that becomes OK to do in Fedora, we'll follow suit. | 15:39 |
| quaid | I mean, Fedora doesn't support closed binary workaround, so we don't have to, and really shouldn't | 15:40 |
| quaid | if we do our job right and are visible enough, the rest of Fedora will make sure we don't drift, too :) | 15:40 |
| quaid | ok, we went over the mark | 15:41 |
| quaid | but I think we got some consensus, yes? | 15:41 |
| jmbuser | please sum up | 15:41 |
| quaid | ok, let's see ... | 15:42 |
| * jsmith stumbles back | 15:42 | |
| Sparks | +1 | 15:42 |
| quaid | 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo is opt-in, consisting of all who want to be involved in steering | 15:42 |
| quaid | 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo has the charge to make sure leadership remains relevant | 15:42 |
| quaid | add to that: | 15:42 |
| quaid | 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo decides to elect or appoint | 15:42 |
| quaid | 12:30 < quaid> * If project members have problems with any of that, the answer is obviously to opt-in to the process and help from within the steering | 15:42 |
| quaid | FDSCo elects or appoints leadership as they see fit. | 15:42 |
| quaid | and what I propose: | 15:42 |
| quaid | all FDSCo members say "I am a Fedora Docs Leader" | 15:43 |
| quaid | and we emphasize points of contact that are subject matter focused rather than one big daddy | 15:43 |
| quaid | (that is a grow-to strategy that includes better DocsProject pages to help others find their SME) | 15:43 |
| quaid | eosummary | 15:44 |
| quaid | SME == subject matter expert | 15:44 |
| quaid | did I miss anything? | 15:44 |
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| * jmbuser is starting to "get it" | 15:44 | |
| jsmith | quaid: You forget that we're going to elect you puppet dictator for life | 15:45 |
| jmbuser | All hail, quaid! | 15:45 |
| jsmith | quaid: But other than that minor issue, you've hit the issue squarely on the head | 15:45 |
| quaid | hey, I have an ego, too | 15:45 |
| Sparks | quaid quaid quaid quaid | 15:45 |
| jsmith | quaid++ | 15:45 |
| jmbuser | MIB II reference :-) | 15:45 |
| quaid | anyone who says they aren't proud of their roles in Fedora is probably lying :) | 15:45 |
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| jsmith | quaid: I'm not proud of my role on FDSCo... does that count? | 15:46 |
| Sparks | So that went twice as long as was "allowed"... :) | 15:47 |
| quaid | word | 15:48 |
| quaid | anything more? | 15:48 |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg rolls onward -- release notes 9.0.2-1 | 15:48 | |
| quaid | anyone here know anything? | 15:48 |
| * jsmith doesn't know *anything* | 15:49 | |
| quaid | mdious isn't here, it's middle of night in .au | 15:49 |
| quaid | stickster_afk is dining still | 15:49 |
| * quaid is joking, he doesn't know | 15:49 | |
| quaid | ok, moving on | 15:49 |
| jsmith | ~hail gluttony! | 15:49 |
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| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo is as FDSCo does -- Wiki gardening ... | 15:49 | |
| quaid | let's make this the final topic for now | 15:49 |
| quaid | oh, sorry | 15:49 |
| quaid | Sparks had some stuff too | 15:49 |
| Sparks | Not really... It can wait. | 15:50 |
| quaid | Sparks: are those sub topics to wiki gardening? | 15:50 |
| Sparks | Yes | 15:50 |
| couf | pong, sorry | 15:50 |
| quaid | if you say yes, then go ahead, that's as good a place to start as any | 15:50 |
| Sparks | Okay... So wiki gardening... | 15:50 |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo is as FDSCo does -- Wiki gardening ... UG, SecG, Other, cleaning up projects list ... | 15:50 | |
| Sparks | I've been making a run through the DocsProject and Documentation pages... | 15:50 |
| quaid | (it's been going pretty well, IMO, thanks to all who have been helping) | 15:51 |
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| Sparks | and I think I've hit most of the 'big' pages... | 15:51 |
| quaid | +1 sweet | 15:51 |
| Sparks | but if you want to see how many pages are actually attributed to the DocsProject... | 15:51 |
| Sparks | just go to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:DocsProject. | 15:51 |
| Sparks | This brings up my first request... | 15:52 |
| tiagoaoa | let me see if I can talk here | 15:52 |
| Sparks | categories. | 15:52 |
| tiagoaoa | yep.. not moderated, see? | 15:52 |
| Sparks | tiagoaoa Go ahead | 15:52 |
| tiagoaoa | nevermind | 15:52 |
| quaid | Sparks: we can have categories in cats, right? | 15:52 |
| Sparks | quaid: We can have anything we want. | 15:53 |
| Sparks | Looks like Drkludge wrote something for our category... | 15:53 |
| quaid | tiagoaoa: if you are having trouble talking in a #fedora-* channel, the channel topic there should point you at directions for registering your nick. | 15:53 |
| quaid | Sparks: what are you thinking about for cats? | 15:53 |
| Sparks | so that if anyone clicks on the category it will give them some information on what it is. | 15:54 |
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| Sparks | There seems to be two... DocsProject and Documentation | 15:54 |
| quaid | they are different | 15:54 |
| quaid | one is content useful for people, the other is the project that maintains that content | 15:54 |
| Sparks | If we can flag all the Documentation as such then it would make it easier to maintain and have people find it | 15:54 |
| quaid | true that | 15:54 |
| Sparks | quaid: exactly | 15:54 |
| quaid | do we want to move the actual docs out from the DocsProject cat? | 15:55 |
| Sparks | I'd like to propose we also do one for the drafts. | 15:55 |
| quaid | what about a namespace? | 15:55 |
| Sparks | quaid: I don't know. That was one of my questions | 15:55 |
| quaid | Docs: or something | 15:55 |
| quaid | ianweller: can we have a page in multiple, non-nested categories? | 15:55 |
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| quaid | ianweller: or should we have a Documentation cat, and a DocumetationDraft sub-cat? | 15:56 |
| Sparks | quaid: yes... Check the security guide. | 15:56 |
| ianweller | it depends on how you want to do it. do you want your drafts in [[Category:Documentation]]? | 15:56 |
| quaid | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation | 15:56 |
| quaid | ok, I see | 15:56 |
| jsmith | Gotta run again... | 15:56 |
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| ianweller | if not, make them separate; if so, add [[Category:Documentation]] to the page for Category:DocumentationDraft | 15:56 |
| quaid | ianweller: yes | 15:56 |
| Sparks | ianweller: cool... hadn't thought of that. | 15:57 |
| quaid | that seems clear enough | 15:57 |
| quaid | Sparks: +1 to the general idea, fwiw | 15:57 |
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| Sparks | Yeah, just trying to get a standard out there | 15:57 |
| quaid | I want to see us leading others in how to use MediaWiki to our advantage | 15:57 |
| Sparks | the cats make it VERY easy to maintain things | 15:57 |
| quaid | ianweller: what is the advantage of a Namespace: over or alongside a Category: ? | 15:57 |
| quaid | Sparks: can you write up a policy? DocsProject/Categories or something | 15:58 |
| Sparks | Sure | 15:58 |
| quaid | policy/procedure/guideline whatever | 15:58 |
| Sparks | guide | 15:58 |
| Sparks | that's not a problem | 15:58 |
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| Sparks | Anyone have anything else? If not I'll go on to the orphan pages and that will be it for me | 15:58 |
| quaid | I want to talk about namespaces but need to grok it better | 15:59 |
| quaid | so we can move on to orphaned, sure | 15:59 |
| Sparks | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:Lonelypages | 15:59 |
| * quaid reading http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Namespace | 15:59 | |
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| Sparks | So this page shows all the pages in the wiki that aren't linked to any other page in the wiki | 15:59 |
| quaid | oooooh, nice Special: page | 15:59 |
| ianweller | quaid: i'm trying to search for what would be a good reason to completely switch over to namespaces | 15:59 |
| Sparks | Lots of fun stuff in here. | 15:59 |
| quaid | wow, there are tons there | 16:00 |
| quaid | for the MoinEditorBackup, ianweller or someone was looking at a way to mass delete them | 16:00 |
| Sparks | Yeah, and if they aren't linked some how then they are only going to be found by a search which to me is inefficient | 16:00 |
| quaid | that one is on the Migration Masters to-do list | 16:01 |
| Sparks | yeah | 16:01 |
| quaid | Sparks: well ... | 16:01 |
| quaid | Sparks: one thing about MW is search is useful | 16:01 |
| quaid | Sparks: also, they might be linked from the outside, which is legit | 16:01 |
| quaid | I'd want to see a cross between this list and a Google frequency of some kind | 16:01 |
| Sparks | I'm not saying we should go in and try to shoehorn all these pages in, but there are a lot of DocsProject files out there that need some love | 16:01 |
| quaid | to use it as a basis for declaring orphans | 16:01 |
| quaid | that is true | 16:01 |
| Sparks | I agree | 16:01 |
| quaid | ok, we are out of time | 16:01 |
| Sparks | Yep, the orphan thing was just food for thought. | 16:02 |
| Sparks | eof | 16:02 |
| quaid | let's move this over to #fedora-docs to continue, a policy will take more discussion. | 16:02 |
| quaid | ok, then, cool | 16:02 |
| quaid | thanks everyone | 16:02 |
| quaid | </meeting> | 16:02 |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: blank for next folks | 16:02 | |
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| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: /topic Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule | 16:05 | |
| quaid | oh | 16:05 |
| quaid | I bet the EMEA Ambassadors are busy right now :) | 16:05 |
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| jmbuser | quaid: what happened? | 16:06 |
| quaid | jmbuser: LinuxTAG? | 16:06 |
| quaid | I just reckoned many of them are physically together | 16:06 |
| jmbuser | meeting still on? | 16:07 |
| quaid | jmbuser: oh, sorry | 16:07 |
| quaid | just noticed you dropped | 16:07 |
| quaid | jmbuser: we are done with th emeeting, just ran :02 over | 16:07 |
| * jmbuser disappeared without a trace | 16:07 | |
| quaid | I'll get the raw log out right away | 16:07 |
| jmbuser | quaid: Thanks | 16:07 |
| quaid | then i can use the new irclog2html.py -s mediawiki to setup an mw table :) | 16:08 |
| jmbuser | That's the solution I gather | 16:08 |
| quaid | it looks good, i converted our last three meeting logs to it | 16:08 |
| jmbuser | All my old IRC logs are useless, then? - see 2007 | 16:08 |
| jmbuser | AAARGGH! | 16:09 |
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| quaid | no, not useless | 16:10 |
| quaid | just showing raw HTML instead | 16:10 |
| quaid | to be honest, I think it's not highly important what we discussed last year in that level of detail | 16:11 |
| quaid | the onlist summary is usually accurate and easier to find | 16:11 |
| jmbuser | let's continue this in Fedora-docs | 16:11 |
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| tiagoaoa | Good work, everybody | 16:28 |
| tiagoaoa | let 's hit the bar | 16:28 |
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| xm4n | greetings | 23:23 |
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| xm4n | whats the topic tonite? | 23:38 |
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| --- Log closed Thu May 29 00:00:56 2008 | ||
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