--- Log opened Wed Dec 03 11:02:07 2008
* jlaska 11:02
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wwoodsand anyone else who's here for the QA meeting say hi for the logs11:02
linuxguruhi all ;)11:02
wwoodsagenda for this week:11:03
wwoods1) quick review of the F10 release11:03
wwoods2) requirements for wikified test plans11:03
wwoods3) misc.11:03
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wwoodsand, yeah, I know, I should have sent a reminder to fedora-test-list earlier this week11:04
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wwoodsI'll do that before the next meeting.11:04
* f13 11:04
wwoodspoelcat: hiya11:04
wwoodsokay, so let's start with..11:04
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | F10 Release Review11:05
wwoodsYou probably already noticed, but: F10 is out! Whee!11:05
* jds2001 here11:05
* sgtd 11:05
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wwoodsso. Other than the *general* QA problems/needs - more automation, better test plans, better bug reporting, etc.11:05
wwoodswere there any *specific* problems (or good things) with the F10 release?11:06
jlaskawell, I enjoyed the test days, and I'd like to kick off more of them for F11 features11:06
wwoodsMy Intel-video / KVM / bluetooth test machine died right around Preview, which hampered my personal testing11:06
f13Our tree has some bad inconsistancies, and bugs in it11:06
linuxguruoh well F10 is a good release besides just system-config-network pissed a few people around i know including me yes!11:07
wwoodsbut I'm trying to get some new hardware for that11:07
f13the most embarrassing is conflicts within the tree11:07
wwoodsf13: in F10?11:07
f13and broken deps in the Fedora tree and on DVD/CDs11:07
wwoodsoh man, yuck.11:07
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f13I missed testing for this, and everybody else did too because I had to stage the beast directly on the master mirror where nobody else could get to it11:08
wwoodswell, conflicts within the Everything tree should be expected, right?11:08
f13I ran verify-tree, but forgot to look at things verify-tree didn't check for.11:08
f13wwoods: no11:08
f13wwoods: at any point in time, the entire Fedora package set must be conflict free11:08
wwoodsoh, *file* conflicts?11:08
f13explicit conflicts are not allowed either11:09
wwoodsah OK. I thought you were saying packages could not use Conflicts: 11:09
viking_ice_yeah I would like to take the test days to the next level + kicking in early feature testing so we can nail them down for final..11:09
f13no current Fedora package can conflict in any other way with any other current Fedora package.11:09
wwoodswhich I thought was kind of sensible for some packages (e.g. two mutually-exclusive programs that do the same thing?)11:09
wwoodshm, OK11:09
f13packages can use Conflicts, to express in compatability with older, or newer packages11:09
f13but at no time should those Conflicts trigger on current offerings for a release.11:10
f13no F8 package can conflict with a current F8 package, etc11:10
wwoodsso let's add two tests to the release-test-checklist: 1) No Conflicts, and 2) No broken deps11:10
wwoodsthe Everything install was supposed to be the de-facto test for those11:10
f13(arguably they could go in verify-tree)11:10
wwoodsbut it's not really feasible anymore11:10
jlaskaf13: can seth's conflicts checking code can be used to assist here?11:10
f13yeah, this is the kind of thing we can check outside of an actual install.11:10
f13one thing the everything install does give us though, noisy install logs11:11
f13I don't think any check was done to make sure there were no errors in install.log files11:11
f13jlaska: yes11:11
f13The reasoning behind no conflicts is that the error case there is to punt to the user with a "UR DOING IT WRONG" type message, and they're left to figure out wtf they're supposed to do11:12
f13or worse, composes fail11:12
wwoodsokay. ACTION: new tool (or extend verify-tree) to check for 1) broken deps, 2) conflicts11:12
f13(like people making custom live images)11:12
wwoodsACTION: add tests for broken deps and conflicts to release test matrix11:12
wwoodsanyone opposed to those?11:12
* wwoods doubts it, moving on - but speak up if you disagree11:13
wwoodsAs for Everything - it's basically impossible to test %packages * in the Rawhide/Everything repo11:14
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wwoodsso we need a Fedora tree composed to test that.. and sometimes that's tricky to get to11:14
f13wwoods: why is it impossible?11:14
f13the amount of time it takes?11:14
jlaskatime and kernels it installs11:14
jds2001wwoods: i did it once or twice by checking everything in anaconda (which is obviously not the same, but caught some conflicts)11:14
f13kernels is a trivial thing11:15
f13especially since you can adjust that in %post11:15
jlaskajds2001: that's the best manual method11:15
wwoodsAFAIK if we explicitly disallow conflicts it should be feasible11:15
wwoodsbut conflicts were the reason that Everything installs were mostly ignored11:15
f13rhm, yeah those are bugs that should be fixed11:15
wwoodsthey take fooooreeeever, but that's "hard" not "impossible"11:15
jds2001i thought there was always something on the ReleaseCriteria page saying "there must be no conflicts"11:15
jlaskainstallation isn't required to validate whether a yum repo contains packages that have deps conflicts or whose files conflict11:15
f13it means we're just leaving pitfalls for our users to fall into11:16
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mceplwwoods: sorry, for jumping in the middle of something else, but I came late -- I had on computer exim installed against my will (again) -- do we have "no exim installed" in our QA tests?11:16
f13jlaska: that's correct.  But it is somewhat necessary to ensure every %post is clean11:16
f13(or %pre/%post)11:16
wwoodsmcepl: ha. that's a comps issue, I think11:16
jlaskaf13: how do you mean clean?11:16
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f13jlaska: quiet.  Not littering install.log with errors.11:17
jds2001jlaska: no output11:17
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mcepl(unfortunately, I was not able to reproduce it and not having yum logs, I haven't persuaded jk about it)11:17
wwoodsooh, that's another good bikeshed/honeypot change I can propose - No MTA By Default11:17
f13mcepl: wwoods: it's not an comps issue, it's a pebcak issue11:17
jlaskaf13: right ... but that's a different test that checking for file conflicts11:17
f13jlaska: correct.11:17
mceplf13: sorry, what's pebcak?11:17
f13mcepl: getting to exim is as simple as unchecking sendmail from the base group when you install.11:17
f13mcepl: Problem Exists Between Chair and Keyboard.11:17
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wwoodsright, so the underlying problem is that something requires an MTA11:18
mceplno, I had installed postfix and I hadn't do any selection whatsoever -- just doing yum upgrade11:18
wwoodsand if you don't have one selected, exim wins11:18
wwoodsdoes postfix not have the proper provides?11:18
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f13mcepl: then I demand yum logs (:11:19
jds2001so there was a bug against cronie that it needs local delivery and doesn't require an MTA11:19
mceplf13: I know, and I haven't have them, so I loose; just that that "exim wins" should be checked against in QA tests.11:19
f13in what way?11:20
f13"exim wins" is 100% valid, if you don't give the resolver any other hints as to what you prefer.11:20
jds2001and we came up in the bug with a virtual provides for local delivery, and have an esmtp package that just does local delivery11:20
wwoodsanyway the exim thing is certainly a bug worth following up on.. but it's not a specific problem in the test/QA process for F1011:21
wwoodsso let's save that for later11:21
mceplsure, shutting up11:21
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buggbotBug 472710: medium, medium, ---, mmaslano@redhat.com, ASSIGNED, fix cronie MTA requirements11:21
wwoodsany other problems in the F10 test cycles that we could address in F11?11:22
wwoodsI've got one thing - we're going to try to make the freezes freezier, and make the features have better specifications and test plans11:22
jds2001just the lack of feature specs, but I'm running point on that for F11.11:22
wwoodsjds2001: hooray, and thank you for that.11:23
jlaskago jds2001! :)11:23
wwoodsTo explain a bit further (IIRC) we're advising FESCo that all feature plans need a Specification (i.e. a well-formed Scope section) by Alpha11:23
f13I think the biggest thing I'm focusing on for QA in F11 is getting some darned infrastructure in place for reactive testing11:23
f13IE react to a cvs checking, react to a build, react to an update request, react to a tree compose11:24
wwoodsthat describes exactly what the feature is supposed to do - what pieces it needs to be deemed complete and operational11:24
wwoodsand that Spec should be used to write a good Test Plan by Beta 11:24
wwoodsthat describes how we, the testers, can actually check to see if the feature meets its specification.11:24
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wwoods(jds2001: did I get that right?)11:24
jds2001wwoods: yep11:25
jds2001and one that doesn't assume i use gizmo X every day.11:25
wwoodsf13: ah - this falls into the broad "more automation!" category11:25
jds2001(use it, see if it works is not a valid test plan IOW)11:25
wwoodsunless there's some specific problem from the F10 cycle that you want to address with this?11:26
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f13wwoods: well, many of our tree problems could have been caught way earlier11:26
f13before they were ever composed into a tree11:26
wwoods(not to say it's not important, just want to make sure any specific goofs from F10 are examined and we have plans to prevent 'em recurring)11:26
wwoodscould you give an example?11:27
f13the conflicts could have been found11:27
f13they've existed for a while, any check of the rawhide compose would have found them11:27
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wwoodsOK, cool11:29
wwoodsso, I assume we're talking about a qpid instance here?11:29
wwoodssending out messages when certain events occur?11:29
f13yeah, that's my thoughts11:30
f13the other side of that is somethign reacting to the messages11:30
wwoodsso the first Proof of Concept will be having verifytree run when Rawhide finishes?11:30
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f13that seems like a useful thing to do11:32
f13I was also going to target replacing the cvs post-commit email thing with just a message blast to the bus, and something else on the bus listening for that and taking care of generating email, rss, etc...11:33
f13in theory it'll make cvs commits go much faster for the end user, fix the ^c hole (or at least make it much much smaller), and have more flexibilty in what we do with that information.11:33
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jds2001rss would be cool :)11:33
wwoodsinteresting stuff. can you keep us posted on how that's progressing? esp. if you've got a test instance up or some design docs we can write code against11:33
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f13Hopefully this week I'll have my homeserver set up enough to launch an el5 guest to start tinkering again11:35
wwoodsawesome. 11:35
f13then I"ll move on to a publictest instance11:35
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wwoodsokay. any other stuff specific to F10 we should talk about fixing up?11:35
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f13let me look at my list11:36
f13Daily compose attempts of Live images, and information gathering of them11:36
f13trying to make "oh shit it doesn't fit" emergencies happen less11:36
wwoodsahhh yes.11:37
f13this wasn't so much an issue toward the end of the cycle, more of an issue around alpha/beta11:37
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wwoodsplus it gives us more live images to test11:37
f13I've got a pile of code written up, I need to finish it and deploy it11:37
wwoodserr more up-to-date11:37
f13I'm not sure if the images themselves will be posted11:37
f13that's a /ton/ of churn11:37
f13(these are not rsync friendly files)11:37
f13but the output from the compose attempts and various info regarding the images will be kept around11:38
wwoodstrue. so just a build-and-check-for-explosions?11:38
jds2001i thought we agreed not to post the images.11:38
wwoodsperhaps an attempt to boot 'em in KVM or something11:38
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jds2001that might be nice, if easily automatable (i'm sure it is)11:38
wwoodsanyway, yes, they don't need to get posted, I was just pondering11:38
viking_ice_is it possible to release iso spins more often that seems to be adding in testing stuff perhaps weekly releases..11:38
f13first target is just attempt to compose, gather info, diff against previous day/milestone11:39
viking_ice_users seems to be more willing to test if they have an iso to play with..11:39
f13beyond that we can talk about adding more stuff in, like kvm trials.11:39
f13viking_ice_: we release the /tools/ that we use to make isos, so that/anybody/ can make isos at any time11:39
viking_ice_I'm aware of that..11:39
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f13viking_ice_: trying to host isos for download or mirror them more frequently will slow /everything/ down.11:40
viking_ice_they arent or not willing to use them..11:40
viking_ice_f13 solved by torrent only11:40
f13not really11:40
wwoodsnot really solved, no 11:40
f13we get a ton of complaints that torrent misses wide swaths of our userbase11:40
wwoodstorrents only work when you have a *lot* of people requesting the same file11:40
wwoodsand you're not firewalled off from using it11:41
f13and the more frequent iso drops means less people on the torrent which means slower downloads for everybody11:41
jds2001one other thing is that you have to *have* rawhide to compose a rawhide live image11:41
f13jds2001: or a chroot thereof11:41
wwoodsno, I think people just need to be instructed on how to use boot.iso11:41
jds2001not an issue for me since I have a machine that runs rawhide all the time.,11:41
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f13(well, except for the livecd case, livecds can't be composed in chroots  *grrr*)11:41
jds2001f13: didnt think chroot worked for livecd-creator11:41
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f13we could however guide people into making their own iso sets for test days11:43
f13and have better examples on the wiki of how to make iso sets from rawhide for extended testing11:43
viking_ice_well I basically want to expand the idea of test day and make every day a test day..11:43
jds2001yeah, i have a blog post that i've been meaning to generalize into a wiki page11:44
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* jds2001 adds that to the pile o' doom.11:44
wwoodsmore test days is a good idea, but we'll need more testers if we want to have more of 'em11:44
wwoodsso yes, lowering the barrier to entry for testing is a good idea11:44
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wwoodsbut, as mentioned, I don't think we're going to be able to get full composes daily11:45
wwoodsand instead we should focus on simplifying/documenting making yer own images11:45
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viking_ice_i'm not that worried about it just though I mention it + iso are only needed for install testing so...11:45
f13iso are only needed for iso based install testing11:46
wwoodsyeah, but the most part of install testing can be done with boot.iso11:46
f13you can do lots of other install testing without full .isos11:46
wwoodsor with network installs11:46
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* jds2001 generally uses PXE and network method o' the day.11:46
viking_ice_it's faster as well11:47
jds2001i also have a local mirror.11:47
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wwoodsso, yes, to summarize: more documentation / better tools for doing installs (esp. in KVM) would be really helpful in getting more testers 11:48
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f13and to echo clumens, screw more testers, I want more fixers (:11:49
wwoodsjds2001 is going to (eventually) write a wiki page on creating your own CD/DVD images11:50
wwoodsI'll write a wiki page on using boot.iso/netinst.iso to do a network install, I guess? would that be helpful?11:50
wwoodsor do we think that everyone who is *willing* to install rawhide already knows how?11:51
viking_ice_Has not any of the programmers tried reeling in young programmers at uni's and have some kind of mentoring project ?11:51
wwoodswe do have a couple mentoring projects actually11:51
f13Red Hat has just started getting into some of that11:51
viking_ice_wwoods: Think that would be setup under QA under Setting up you own test system11:52
f13but usually it's a quagmire of paperwork11:52
viking_ice_beer stopped working..11:52
f13and trying to find something that fits will with a students class load11:52
wwoodsChris Tyler - who's on the Fedora Board - is a professor at Seneca College in Toronto11:52
viking_ice_wwoods: + i want to split testing into level beginner amateur expert debugger even..11:53
wwoodsviking_ice_: yeah, having difficulty ratings for different test/QA tasks would be helpful11:53
wwoodsso let's talk about wiki stuff some more11:54
jds2001but where does a pungi compose fit into that?  That's trivial and I can do it in my sleep.  But it might not be for someone else.11:54
f13jds2001: it's pretty trivially documented or walked through11:54
wwoodsjds2001: I'd rate that as fairly advanced, since it requires some infrastructure and a load of disk and time and *then* you have to burn and install..11:54
viking_ice_depends on the doc if just anyone else can do that :)11:54
f13jds2001: the first time is the hardest, but the hardest part is gleaning the difference between a "I did the compose wrong" and "the tree is busted" errors.11:55
wwoodsit's not as easy as, say, enabling updates-testing11:55
viking_ice_which would be for beginners..11:55
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wwoodsit's a big question, but we definitely have some wiki grooming to do11:56
wwoodswhich leads me to..11:56
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | Wikified Test Plans11:57
wwoodsWe've talked about this a few times before - we were going to use the wiki to store test plans, then testopia, then it went away11:57
wwoodstracking test *execution* remains a different problem11:57
viking_ice_just noting that wiki is no place to report on test plans..11:57
wwoodsfilling in the matrixes on the wiki sucks. but we'll talk about that some other day.11:57
jds2001dmalcolm was supposed to come up wiht something bigger/faster/better, but that's in the planning stages atm iirc11:58
viking_ice_and follows kiss11:58
jds2001though i did see his name on the fudcon list :)11:58
wwoodsyeah, I think there will be some stuff to discuss in that regard at fudcon11:58
jds2001which btw, are you going wwoods? I didn't see or overlooked your name.11:59
wwoodsbut as for writing test *plans* and related stuff..11:59
wwoodsoh, um11:59
wwoodsI'm planning on it. Am I not on the list?11:59
wwoodsnope, there I am, #3011:59
viking_ice_well i'm seeing ( simpler ) version of bodhi as a reporting how it went tho the actually testplan could be on the wiki12:00
jds2001ahh, i'm blind.  Never mind me....12:00
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wwoodsright - regardless of what we have to track test reporting, we need to put plans somewhere12:01
wwoodsand we've already got this wiki12:01
wwoodsso. here's the proposal.12:01
wwoods1) create a QA: namespace.12:01
wwoods2) start creating a page per-package under QA: - like QA:kernel12:01
wwoodsor QA:rhythmbox12:02
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wwoods3) each package-page will contain several sections, such as:12:02
wwoodsa) How to test (which could contain links to pages for other test plans)12:02
wwoodsb) Troubleshooting12:03
wwoodsc) Reporting a bug12:03
wwoodsnow. someday in the glorious future we should also have a bug-reporting client program12:03
viking_ice_I think you can skip b since it should be in a12:03
jds2001wwoods: we already do, python-bugzilla :)12:04
viking_ice_I would rather see it as install test develope12:04
* jds2001 ducks12:04
wwoodswhich will display the b) section when you want to report a bug about that package12:04
wwoods(or something like that)12:04
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wwoodsit'd also be good to have a subsection of c) that lists files (and their mime-types) in a machine-readable format12:04
wwoodsso the bug-reporter client can automatically attach those files to a bug report12:04
viking_ice_also we need to create a template for that if we are going to fetch info from it into bugzilla..12:04
wwoodsviking_ice_: what do you mean by "install test develope"?12:05
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wwoodsyeah, definitely going to need templates and examples12:05
wwoodsBut there's a difference between having a section on "how to test a new rhythmbox package to make sure it works" and "things to try if rhythmbox is acting funny"12:07
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wwoodse.g. the first thing a triager will say on any xorg bug report is: "can you try running without xorg.conf"12:07
viking_ice_How to install <-->  A from package b from source ( svn ) How to test <--> reporting step by step guidance test cases what to test etc How to develop <--> developing info12:07
jds2001why would we install anything from source?12:08
* jds2001 confuzzled, we're testing actual builds here.12:08
viking_ice_upstream testing done some of those with projects on fedorahosted..12:08
jds2001oh, sure - upstream can do what they like :)12:09
jds2001even if we're upstream, they've gotta package it to get it in Fedora.12:09
viking_ice_you get faster testing reporting with svn checkouts.. you test he codes you test again.. more efficient12:09
viking_ice_better results..12:10
jds2001right, that goes with working upstream.12:10
jds2001we're talking about our distro atm, not working with every single upstream to QA their code.12:10
viking_ice_hence I personally stuck with fedorahosted..12:11
* jds2001 not planning on building GNOME anytime soon, for example.12:11
viking_ice_should be appealing argument if we are upstream that we provide testers..12:11
viking_ice_ofcourse fedora reaps the benefit of that effort..12:12
jds2001we can't even test the integration of our own friggin distro, let's not branch out into upstream quite yet :)12:12
jds2001someone stop me if you disagree :)12:12
wwoodsYou make a good point, though - it makes fedorahosted more attractive for someone looking for hosting12:13
wwoodsif we say "look, you get a whole bunch of testers for free"12:13
viking_ice_well there are issues we need to overcome that get always thrown back and fourth I say build a community another say more testers means more reports and we cant handle the reports as is ..12:13
wwoodswhat we really need is *smarter* testers and *better* bug reports12:14
viking_ice_but first step is cleaning up wiki so lets get that QA name space..12:14
wwoodswhich means - give people more docs and tools that help them report better bugs12:14
f13(and more people fixing things)12:14
viking_ice_and testers dont get smarter if they dont have docs to read..12:14
f13always the missing part of the equasion.12:14
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wwoodsf13: there's two responses to that: 1) Hey, we're QA! that's not our problem!12:15
wwoodsbut much better is: 2) Finding the problem is half of fixing it12:15
wwoodsso giving our testers better tools / guidance on how to find the *actual* cause of their problems12:16
wwoodswill make things easier on current devs12:16
wwoodsand probably turn some of those testers into fixers12:16
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f13one could only hope (:12:17
wwoodsIt certainly can't hurt12:17
wwoodsIt took me a long time of fumbling around and getting hints from people on how to trace problems / write better bug reports12:18
wwoodsbefore I got to the point of being able to track down problems fully myself and actually generate patches to fix 'em12:18
wwoodsI think leading people along that path will have its benefits12:18
wwoodsanyway, yeah12:18
wwoodsACTION: wwoods will request that infrastructure set up the QA namespace on the wiki12:18
viking_ice_starting with beginner --> turning into advanced --> expert --> debugger --> developing..12:19
viking_ice_all in the master plan..12:19
wwoodsand then the last step: total world domination12:19
viking_ice_takes time deploying this but we can expect to see actually results 2 release from now..12:19
wwoodsanyway once we have the namespace, viking_ice_, do you have a certain package you want to use as an example/template?12:19
wwoodsit'd be good to have a couple proposed example QA pages that we can use to write up a full specification12:20
wwoodsfirst it might be good to list the actual requirements, which I think are: a) how to test, b) how to report bugs12:21
viking_ice_I can create one i've been meaning to start with X12:21
wwoodsc) developer notes (building etc.) might be optional12:21
wwoodssection b) probably should have a subsection that describes the files needed in a proper bug report12:21
viking_ice_That's something that a maintainer needs to provide..12:21
wwoodswe also need to think about what do to for packages that share test plans etc. (probably redirect them to the Master Page)12:22
viking_ice_for instance lot of triagers and other testers have been asking reporters to attach file that they did not need nor want12:22
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wwoodsright, we want the developers to know that they can (and should) edit the QA pages themselves12:23
wwoodsbut first we need to figure out what is required and what is optional12:23
viking_ice_atleast they need to approve them..12:23
jds2001no way we can write test plans for ~4000 components.12:23
jds2001but a maintainer can write a plan for say, 10.12:24
viking_ice_jds2001: falls under the "every day is a test day ... "12:24
wwoodsyeah, and I don't really expect there to be test plans for everything12:24
wwoodsbut guidance on the really common/important stuff would be a great boon12:24
* jds2001 would like to start with a package I own in EPEL that never gets touched, the most important package of all though!12:25
jds2001cowsay! :)12:25
jds2001not really, just figured I'd get my cowsay promo out there.12:25
viking_ice_maintainer: sends us with a day or 2 in advanced on what he wants to be tested we prepare the wiki for our testers mark the test-ing on the calender and post to the test list what to test..12:26
wwoodsthat's a good way to build up the test plans, definitely12:26
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viking_ice_thats the finally thingi with every day is a test day + it ensures that all the components which aren't very popular or winning any beauty patents get they're  fair share of testing12:28
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wwoodsdo we want to plan a rawhide test day now? or maybe an F10 test day to clear up some outstanding issues?12:30
viking_ice_the problem is that it does not fix the problem with the final out we need to gets some intel from forums and #fedora and focus on that.. then get the unity guys to issue an respin..12:33
viking_ice_then start focusing on rawhide again..12:33
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wwoodsso we'll focus on F10 issues for a little while.. sounds like a good plan\12:34
viking_ice_F10 Test day would be better focusing on what's being reported..12:34
viking_ice_Are we doing any data mining on #fedora and the fedora forum and the fedora-user list ?12:37
wwoodsI'm not, personally12:37
f13I think we should give rawhide a little bit of time to smooth out from the libtool/python/rpm pkg-config fallout12:37
wwoodsI've only got so much time in the day12:37
f13although a test-day that covers those things would be useful.12:37
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viking_ice_f13: true get testing when python 2.6 is done..12:38
jds2001f13: can ivazquez tell us when he thinks python is in a stable state?12:38
jds2001i.e. lots of things using it?12:38
f13I'm sure he can.12:39
viking_ice_arent there any responsible for the #fedora and fedora forum along with fedora-user list? could we please get the test-traffic of the devel list to the test list12:39
ivazquezWe'll notice it get stable when the Rawhide reports stop showing so many "python(abi)" and "libpython2.5" dep problems.12:39
f13viking_ice_: sounds like you're volunteering12:40
wwoodsThere's a few people that do a #fedora op helper thing, occasionally they let me know about stuff that people are complaining about a lot12:41
wwoodsbut nothing official12:41
viking_ice_volunteering on what ? ( me doing wiki stuff ) Rahul was good at this along with Andrew I think during F7 or F8 bouncing the reporters to the test list..12:41
wwoodsgenerally they get told "go file a bug"12:41
viking_ice_We need to activate them in statistic...12:42
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viking_ice_priorities on that with a test day,,12:42
mceplBTW, there is planned (but not yet announced) perl fallout12:42
mceplprobably not as brutal, but affecting many (if not most) perl-* packages12:43
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viking_ice_will X 1.6 be introduced in F11 + we need to get extensive testing on ext412:43
viking_ice_something tells me it's going to be default now..12:43
jds2001viking_ice_: i dont see a feature for that yet, it surely will be one.12:44
jds2001same with any Xorg rebase12:45
viking_ice_and another thing will kernel 29 be inn final..12:45
wwoodsdunno about X 1.6 - that's an ajax question12:45
wwoodssame with kernel. probably yes to both. 12:45
viking_ice_I pop the question did not get a reply..12:45
jds2001viking_ice_: they're looking at 2.6.30 I thought.12:45
wwoodsmaybe kernel .30. but who knows? it's hard to say.12:45
f13"If it's ready in time"12:46
viking_ice_well anything other than whats current..12:46
wwoodsI don't think we'll switch to ext4 by default12:46
wwoodsalthough it would be fun to drop LVM *and* do ext4 by default12:46
viking_ice_why not?12:46
wwoodsjust to really mess with people12:46
viking_ice_if its going to make into RHEL 6 it needs to be tested..12:46
wwoodsbecause it's unproven and has no significant benefits over ext3 for nearly all Fedora users12:47
f13it's like buttah!12:47
wwoodsOTOH it's quite stable and somewhat quicker, and it's not a huge change12:47
jds2001FESCo is in 10 minutes, and I'd like to get something to eat real quick :)12:47
wwoodsI can see both sides of the argument. I'll leave it up to sandeen and other very smart folks12:47
f13I'd be in favor of ext4 by default, if we made the switch pre-alpha12:47
wwoodsbut they should definitely decide soon.. yeah exactly12:48
wwoodsit'd be a Feature12:48
wwoodsshould we poll them on that?12:48
wwoods"QA requests that this be decided immediately to allow for maximum test time"12:48
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viking_ice_yup sounds good..12:48
wwoodsalso, yes, lunch12:48
viking_ice_lunch.. ?12:48
viking_ice_sleep to..12:48
wwoodslunch/sleep, depending on your time zone12:49
viking_ice_wwoods: QA namespace..12:49
wwoodsright, QA namespace12:49
viking_ice_that's the first stone..12:49
wwoodsand then you and I will cook up some example pages12:49
wwoodsand we'll send mail to fedora-test-list and/or fedora-devel-list for discussion12:49
wwoodsto see if there's any requirements we're missing12:50
wwoodsmostly we'll just get a lot of useless bikeshed painting but that's OK12:50
viking_ice_yup after we make the examples...12:50
* f13 goes for breakfast12:50
viking_ice_i'm close to supper...12:50
wwoodsONGOING: continue rounding up F10 bugs, consider a test day for clearing out bug backlog12:51
f13and wwoods is off for lunch. THe trifecta!12:51
f13wwoods: oh, I subscribed to the rawhide bugs rss feed, so I'm having a much better eye on what's happening there.12:51
wwoodsACTION: ask ivasquez to notify QA when the Great Python Updating is complete so we can try a test day12:51
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f13after the initial slug through the backlog, it's going to be much easer to keep up on the incoming stuff.12:51
* viking_ice_ wants python 3.012:51
wwoodsACTION: ask sandeen / kernel devs / etc. to make decision about ext4-by-default in F11 ASAP so we can get testing docs ready12:52
* jwb goes to talk to sandeen12:52
wwoodsanything else before food/sleep overtake us all?12:52
* wwoods meeting end in 30s12:53
* wwoods meeting end in 15s12:53
wwoodsMeeting over. Whew. Thanks very much for your time, everyone12:54
--- Log closed Wed Dec 03 12:54:12 2008

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