--- Log opened Wed Jan 07 11:19:09 2009
wwoodshooray.. for QA!11:19
wwoodsjds2001, poelcat, jlaska, f13: ping11:19
wwoodseveryone else who is here for the QA meeting, say hello for the log11:19
* f13 11:20
* jds2001 11:20
* jlaska 11:21
* jlaska troubleshooting a frustrating infrastructure issue atm11:21
wwoodsso, hi. There's an agenda on -test-list11:21
wwoodsfirst: f11a status11:23
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | F11 Alpha status11:23
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wwoodsI admit to not having attempted an install during the holidays, but rawhide hasn't been installable the past two times I tried. nevertheless I did a preupgrade from F811:23
* jds2001 has been through a few feature pages...about half11:23
wwoodswhich seems to have locked up on me, but that's just a fun quirk of shit hardware11:24
f13dcantrell and I did a lot of work just before the break to try and get anaconda into a usable state11:24
jds2001i'll probably get to the other half on the train tomorrow.11:24
wwoodshah I meant "this hardware" but man, that's a good typo11:24
f13it was installable, provided you attempted dhcp twice11:24
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wwoodsf13: yeah, I recall that - and thanks11:24
f13that broke further somewhere around the 3rd11:24
wwoodsit was definitely working before the break and has, in general, been more stable than people usually expect of rawhide, so good work there11:25
wwoodsas for feature pages - I've gone through a couple too. mostly right now we need to focus on the Scope sections, I think11:25
wwoodsmake sure they have a detailed list of what will change, and where11:25
wwoodsso we know what we will need to include in the test plan11:25
jds2001yep, were the comments I made relevant?11:26
jds2001I saw you commented on presto as well.11:27
wwoodsyeah, you were pretty much right on the money - I just wanted to be double clear (and double-naggy) about it11:27
wwoodsI feel like presto is one of the more invasive changes so far in F11 and might need special attention11:27
wwoodsprobably will schedule some test days for that11:28
jlaskaI'll be hopefully talking w/ jds2001 about drafting a set of Test Days at fudcon11:28
wwoodsoh excellent11:28
jds2001f13: we might need your help with presto-ized repos on secondary1 or something.11:28
wwoodsthat's a good segue into FUDCon discussions, unless anyone has more about F11a?11:28
f13I have committed 0 time to presto feature11:29
f13I'm already overcomitted for F1111:29
jds2001understood....i guess we can talk at fudcon11:30
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jds2001we == wwoods, jlaska and myself and maybe lmacken??11:31
wwoodsI hope lmacken will be involved, there's a lot of bodhi-related stuff we've been talking about and it'll all be a lot easier if he's involved11:32
wwoodsokay, so, hackfest stuff11:34
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | Planned hackfest sessions at FUDCon11:34
wwoodsWe've got two main hackfests listed: Automated QA (led by f13) 11:35
wwoodsand Automated Installation Testing (led by me)11:35
wwoodsthere's also some Usability Testing meta-hackery that will be *hopefully* led mostly by my wife but I may have my time divided there11:36
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jds2001sounds awesome.11:37
wwoodsbut it turns out that e.g. istanbul is *awesome* for doing usability testing. voila, one simple program and you get an .ogg of everything the user does, and their voice11:38
wwoodsusability testing is a weird overlap of QA and Art/Design11:39
jds2001you got mizmo on for that too?11:39
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wwoodswe (QA) will be helping them write docs for people who want to write test scenarios - e.g. devs with new interfaces, package maintainers, interested QA folks11:40
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wwoodsreviewing the resulting data and making useful suggestions will be the province of the devs themselves, and the art/design team11:40
wwoodsso don't worry, we're not about to get flooded with video to review11:41
wwoodsf13: as for automated QA.. do you have a draft of examples of things you wanted to write tests for11:41
wwoodsand/or places in the process we need to have hooks to run those tests?11:41
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wwoodswell, we'll get back to f13 in a sec11:43
wwoodsbut for the record, I'd like to say that the plans of having a large library of per-package (or systemwide) regression tests 11:43
wwoodsthose plans are still around, we still want to do that11:43
* viking_ice does a fast catchup.. 11:43
wwoodsbut that's *not* what f13 & co. will be working on at FUDCon11:44
jds2001we also want to concentrate on what we can do *right now* like f13 said.11:44
jlaskasmall wins11:44
wwoodsif we learned anything from the movie What About Bob11:44
f13let me know when you're back to me.11:44
wwoodsit is the importance of baby steps11:44
wwoodsf13: sure, go for it11:44
viking_icewwoods: could you elaborate a bit more about "usability testing"11:45
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f13ok, so I talked with jlaska and a few others about this already11:46
wwoodsviking_ice: sitting someone down with an application / website and asking them to perform some task11:46
f13but my talk is basically going to be about near term wins11:46
wwoodsin order to find out how hard (or easy) it is for them to figure out what to do11:46
viking_iceIs this about recording a user doing stuff or is this about recording video for user to do stuff..11:46
wwoodsviking_ice: the first one11:46
viking_icewell got it :(11:46
f13what I'd like to have as the barcamp is a design session on; What we can react to, what we can test once reacted, and where we can report the findings.11:46
wwoodsviking_ice: check out http://betterdesktop.org/ for some prior work in this area11:47
viking_iceI think it's a cool Idea..11:47
f13essentially we can create some buckets, like post-cvs-checkin, post-koji-package-build, post-bodhi-update-request, and even post-rawhide-compose11:47
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f13within those buckets we can toss some test cases such as "can you install the rpm into a fresh chroot", and "with this rpm, can you repoclose against it's target repo"11:47
f13or "does this tree I just composed have any broken deps"11:48
f13we already do a very limited set of post-tree-compose tests, we could add to them.11:48
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jlaskaf13: something we can talk about further at fudcon, but perhaps the items to consider for testing should be the release criteria for those "items" to move to the next phase11:48
f13the design session is just to get people thinking about buckets, tests to put into buckets that would be useful for them, and then a brief talk about where to report this stuff, which may be no further than <package>-owner@fedorparoject.org11:48
wwoodsright - and similarly to the way e.g. yum plugins are defined, we'll want to define what info (parameters/arguments/whatever) each of the test hooks/buckets will get11:51
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f13basically I'm going to be looking for a few key buckets and a few key tests that we can roll out in the next couple weeks11:51
f13something that we can start getting meaningful results /now/ rather than later, and worry about an all encompasing test management system when it comes online.11:52
f13we've gone far too long without regularly doing basic testing of things, mostly looking at Fedora as a "repository of packages"11:52
f13this won't really touch on /functional/ testing of the software itself, eg we wouldnt' be testing if the latest apache build is able to serve up webpages, but more from a point of view of "can I use this as a source to make a spin"11:53
wwoodsautomated functional testing is way further down the line11:53
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f13I'm also looking at more than a few weeks out from being able to do basic install testing of the nightly rawhide trees in a virt environment11:54
f13nothing too fancy, just "does it install or not" to begin with11:55
f13again using the tools that already exist out there like cobbler/koan11:55
wwoodsand that's where the Automated Install Testing stuff starts11:55
viking_iceWe need to come up with a setup app or a script which testers can deploy automated install machines easily11:56
wwoodswe'd actually like to get that part hacked together as best we can during FUDCon11:56
wwoods(hopefully someone will have a fullvirt-capable machine there)11:57
jds2001wwoods: I will.11:57
wwoodsjds2001: yay!11:57
f13viking_ice: sure, but before we get to that, we need something "low tech" that is generating results TODAY11:57
viking_icetrue true..11:58
f13viking_ice: frankly I'm tired of waiting for all these great and wonderful things we could do while we lose sight of getting something done now that has tagible and useful results.11:58
f13(I'm just as guilty of this as anybody else)11:58
wwoodsbut it's definitely our goal to have a really easy-to-use system for people to do automated installs at home11:58
viking_iceor labs..11:59
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wwoodsviking_ice: indeed.12:00
wwoodsf13: definitely agree with that sentiment. 2009 will have more JFDI than ever before12:00
wwoodsviking_ice: the docs for cobbler/koan are actually really good12:02
wwoodsit's very easy to set up12:02
wwoodsbut we'll be writing some QA-specific stuff - docs about adding the releases and rawhide12:02
wwoodsprobably some kickstarts for common install/upgrade cases12:02
viking_iceFocus most on rawhide "testing" setup from scratch..12:03
viking_icelocal mirror etc..12:03
wwoodsrawhide's a hard target to hit sometimes though - it's easier to use something stable (say F10) as a standin for rawhide 12:03
wwoodsbut yeah12:04
f13viking_ice: cobbler can do that for you (the mirroring)12:04
viking_icef13: yup..12:04
wwoodsso wherever possible, we'll try to send reports to fedora-test-list12:05
wwoodsand/or drop links to new and interesting wiki pages here12:06
wwoodserr #fedora-qa, rather12:06
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jds2001there's also #fudcon for more generic stuff.12:06
f13too.. many... IRC... channels12:06
nirikyeah, they are getting to be like mailing lists. ;)12:07
viking_iceperhaps we should just drop direction to the test list since the wiki is slow going12:07
jds2001f13: you dont wanna know how many irc channels im in :)12:07
viking_iceand links..12:07
f13jds2001: I hit the freenode limit the other day12:07
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jds2001f13: you need +u :)12:07
f13no, I need less channels12:08
viking_iceso off to next topic? camera audio fudcon irc channel ?12:08
wwoodsI don't know anything about cameras and such12:09
viking_iceyou point and shoot pretty basic really :)12:09
f13there are going to be cameras and audio, likely not streaming though12:09
wwoodsthat's all Someone Else's Problem12:09
wwoodsyeah I think there will be recordings of sessions but not streams12:09
viking_iceaudio streaming I think..12:09
jds2001and not every session unless we get more camcorders12:10
jds2001viking_ice: of one session.12:10
viking_icejds2001: you mean our session :)12:10
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jds2001and the whole recording and streaming stuff is just saturday12:12
f13any further topics?  I've got a hot date with a cold lunch12:12
wwoodsI've got nothing else12:13
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | misc.12:13
wwoodsanyone else?12:13
jds2001i got nothing. any plans for tomorrow night hacking or anything?12:14
* jds2001 doesn't know what time everyone gets in.12:14
viking_iceand what state they will be in when they come. hehe12:14
wwoodswe leave tonight at 10pm, probably puts us in boston around 2-4pm12:14
wwoodswho knows what state we'll be in12:14
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wwoodswell, "massachusetts"12:15
f13wwoods: hopefully you'll be in the !state of MA12:15
wwoodsbut beyond that all bets are off12:15
f13MA is not a state.12:15
wwoodsoh right12:15
wwoodsit's a commonwealth.12:15
jds2001ke4qqq was saying around 10-11AM....12:15
jds2001dunno how he's planning on driving :)12:15
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wwoodsjds2001: heh. if you don't hit any traffic, and you don't make any extraneous stops, you can do it in 12 hrs12:16
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wwoodsbut there is *always* traffic in DC and NYC12:16
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wwoodsanyway, that's all for the meeting12:18
wwoodsthanks for your time12:18
--- Log closed Wed Jan 07 12:18:31 2009

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