f13wwoods: shit, I mmissed the meetin then?15:47
wwoodsmoved it to 11 Eastern / 8 Pacific / 1600UTC15:48
wwoodsfirst order of business: decide whether to make the15:48
follow-US-DST change permanent
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f13please?  (:15:51
f13although I was awake at 6:30am due to child-process15:52
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wwoodsIIRC when we originally chose the meeting time we had16:00
more people in central europe and nobody on the west coast
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* jds2001 votes to keep it this way16:03
jds2001IIRC, viking_ice is the only non-US participant now?16:03
jds2001apologies if I've missed anyone else.16:03
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viking_iceGuess so for now if my master plan works than this16:05
will be filled with participants in not so distant future...
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viking_ice16:00 UTC is fine by me if you want to change..16:05
wwoodsif it gets to be troublesome for .eu / APAC citizens,16:06
I'd *love* to be forced to have multiple QA meetings
jds2001yeah, but it'd go back to 1700UTC in the summer :(16:06
wwoodsjds2001: ITYM 150016:06
jds2001yeah, brain not functioning this morning16:06
wwoodsso the question is: lock to US Eastern time (1500UTC16:06
summer, 1600 winter)
jds2001still too early after all the jubilation had last night :)16:07
wwoodsor just move it to 1600UTC (11am EST, noon EDT)16:07
wwoodsscheduling meetings over lunchtime is kinda cruel16:07
wwoodsso I lean towards: 11am US Eastern16:08
* jlaska acks16:09
* viking_ice neutral16:09
* leitz shows up if possible. :)16:10
* leitz eats lunch at 11 though...16:10
f13wwoods: my Wed. is pretty open, so any time you pick as16:11
long as it's no earlier than 8am Pacific is fine with me.
wwoodslet's say 11am US Eastern16:11
wwoodspath of least resistance. okay then.16:11
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA16:12
Meeting | F10Preview
wwoodsF10PR is out, yay16:12
wwoodswhich means all that remains for bug tracking is16:12
F10Blocker / F10Target
wwoodsf13: when's the last day for package changes? I keep16:13
guessing Nov. 16 but, y'know
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f13what's the release date again?16:13
f1316th sounds like a great cutoff day16:13
f1317th if your nasty16:14
wwoodslet's say 16th16:14
wwoodsif someone absolutely needs to get something in on the16:14
17th it's gonna earn a lot of scowls
jlaskainstallation related results are looking fairly16:14
positive ... while there are lots of medium severity bugs I'm finding
< jlaska>16:14
jlaskaLUKS installs are under represented there.  We've16:15
talked in the past about refreshing that matrix, but I haven't had
time to organize my thoughts there
jlaskaif someone wants to help with that, I'd be happy to tag-team16:15
wwoodswhat're the most common cases?16:15
wwoods1) default encrypted partitioning, 2) encrypted /home,16:16
3) upgrade from F9 with default enc.
wwoodsas long as those are represented I'd be happy16:17
jlaskawhat's killing us right now is the combinations ...16:17
mixing raidX, lvm pvs, lvm lvs
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wwoodswrt encryption or in general?16:18
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wwoodsgotcha. well, this is another case where we need test prorities16:19
wwoodsnot to get all philosophical and all but we need to16:19
make sure we spend the most time testing stuff that people actually
use the most
* jds2001 thinks that all that mix+match stuff is low priority.16:20
leitzNoob questions. What's LUKS, and are you planning on16:20
default encryping the partition tables or data?
jlaskano complaints here regarding prioritization16:20
wwoods(although you can argue that users of F10Preview test16:20
all that by default)
wwoodsso it kind of means that if we don't test the corner16:20
cases, nobody will
* leitz clicks on link...16:21
jds2001and no encryption by default, but it's an easy check box.16:21
wwoodsleitz: you can set it up either way, but the typical16:21
setup is to leave the partition *table* unencrypted
wwoodsand have one encrypted partition that's used as the16:22
block device for your LVM group, or /home, or whatever
jlaskaso I'd like to re-organize the encrypted test cases16:23
(with noted prioritization in mind). I just haven't been able to yet.
If someone would like to help with that effort please throw something
my way :)
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wwoodsduly noted16:23
wwoodsencrypted filesystems is definitely one of the things16:24
we've been seeing a lot of bug reports on / hearing a lot of people
wwoodsshould also make sure any bugs regarding that get on16:25
blocker or target
wwoodsI think it's also about time we start moving bugs from16:25
F10Target to F11Blocker/Target
wwoodsstuff like bug 119697.. not gonna happen if it hasn't already16:25
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=119697 medium,
medium, ---, twaugh@redhat.com, ASSIGNED, RFE: add a gendiff that
leitzSo you're fixing the *optional* ability to encrypt data16:26
and partition information in Anaconda, via LUKS which has been
available since F5.
wwoodsleitz: yes16:27
wwoodsin F9 it was added to the installer UI as a simple checkbox16:27
wwoodsso a *lot* more people are using it now16:27
leitzIs it machine or arch dependant? Can I take a HD out of16:27
an i386 box, install it in a ppc box, and read the data, assuming I
have the password?
pjonesleitz: should work, yes.16:27
leitzCool. Edge case but common in large enterprises. Our16:28
machines choke and we move data via hard disk.
f13gah, sorry I was distracted.16:28
wwoodsso we need to ensure that it works as expected,16:28
*especially* during upgrades.
f13jds2001: mdraid + encryption isn't that far fetched16:29
wwoodswhich reminds me.. we should add some upgrade cases16:29
jlaskait isn't, but there are limitations around mirror iirc16:29
f13mdraid + lvm + encryption is going overboard, but not by16:29
much given we don't have a good story for partitioning md arrays
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leitzIf you install a new version of the OS, can it wipe the16:30
HD if the partition tables and data are encrypted and you don't know
the password?
wwoodsleitz: of course16:30
wwoodsbut this isn't really the time to discuss LUKS16:31
wwoodsgetting back to installation test planning for f10 final16:31
jlaskaleitz: this is a prime example of a feature needing16:31
more concrete use cases ... that might work well to combine our
efforts to get a more suitable matrix in place
f13leitz: yes, we're quite good at destroying the data on16:31
your disk, regardless of how it's protected.
wwoods- clean up LUKS cases16:31
wwoods- add Upgrade cases16:31
f13about the only thing you can do to protect your disk from16:31
anaconda's ability to wipe it is to use the secure disk stuff that say
xboxs use on the partition tables.
wwoodsanything else that's missing, or been obsoleted and16:32
should be removed, etc.
f13I don't even recall the right terminology for that,16:32
perhaps pjones does.
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pjonesI don't know what xbox does.16:33
f13well, it uses some standard that is supported by the16:33
harddrives or whatnot.
f13you have to have a key in order to 'unlock' the16:33
partitions to do anything with them.
wwoodsevil? is it evil?16:33
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jds2001yes, i think that's what it's called :)16:33
pjonesATA certainly includes the ability to lock disks with a key16:34
pjonesIt's not encryption, but it is access control.  I'm16:34
not familiar with all of the implementation details.
f13that's likely it16:35
wwoodsweird stuff16:35
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f13nasty, because it's rather difficult to recover th ekey16:36
if your xbox is toast
f13OFF TOPIC16:36
wwoodsso, anyway, f10blocker:16:36
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f13woo blockers!16:36
wwoodstake a quick scan and tell me if anything we know16:36
about isn't there
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wwoods(anything that should be blocker-worthy, anyway)16:36
wwoodswe're still getting "sound doesn't work" reports16:36
wwoodsalso "radeon is wonky", which is apparently (somewhat)16:37
fixed in kernel -69
wwoodsbut -68 was in preview so... that's gonna be tricky16:37
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wwoodsonce we have a kernel tagged and new rawhide boot.isos16:38
we can ask people to retest
jlaskawe are planning on pulling in a kernel >= -68 ?16:38
jlaskasorry, I mean -7616:38
* jlaska and jwb looking at a ppc blocker16:39
jlaska* Mon Nov 03 2008 Eric Paris <eparis@redhat.com>
jlaska- Fix selinux oops on ppc64 due to empty tty_files16:39
list (#469079)
wwoodsthere's also -79 now16:39
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jlaskajust dbl checking ... so the latest would get pulled16:39
into a future compose?
wwoodsooh, and in theory -72 should fix a lot of x86_64-intel-slowness16:39
wwoodsnot unless we tag one16:39
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wwoodsdunno if we're waiting for something specific before tagging16:40
* jlaska adds ppc blocker to the F10Blocker list16:40
* leitz wonders how many ppc users there actually are?16:41
f13there are a bunch of releng tickets I haven't looked at16:41
this morning
f13since meeting was the first thing.16:41
f13leitz: a number.16:41
leitzMac or IBM server?16:41
jds2001leitz: we always make jokes about our 8 ppc users.16:41
But there really are a lot.
wwoodsprobably split fairly evenly between the two16:42
jds2001and PS316:42
wwoods"a lot" meaning, like, 4016:42
wwoodsinstead of 816:42
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jds20012769 according to smolt, which would be a low number16:43
wwoodsokay, I'm exaggerating, but it's still 0.7%16:43
jds2001indeed :)16:43
leitzIs there a use case for the ~20 IBM server folks, and16:43
do the 40 ppc users contribute back to the development effort?
jds2001yes, they do.16:44
leitzThat is, are you working hard for a hard working16:44
segment of the community?
wwoodswell that's the thing - because there are so few PPC16:44
users, the contribution-per-user ratio is *enormous* by comparison
f13the problem with things like statistics is that they are16:45
self selecting
wwoodsmost of the known PPC users are either kernel devs,16:45
work on core fedora packages, or both
f13there are large swaths of folks within IBM using/working16:45
on it, but they won't get reported in anything like smolt or our
download numbers
f13but ppc does get the least amount of visible testing16:46
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leitzLet me restate the question another way. The Alpha chip16:46
was awesome and is missed. The x86_64 chip is cussed but used. Is the
ppc more an Alpha or a x86_64?
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f13does it matter for the sake of the meeting?16:46
leitzDo you need to spend cycles on ppc show-stoppers for the 25th?16:47
wwoodsit's more the weirdo arch that we keep around not16:47
because we love it so much
wwoodsbut because the people who bother to work on it are16:47
extremely talented (or lucky)
wwoodsand everything seems to get fixed pretty quickly16:47
wwoodsit's been a long time since we had anything held back16:47
by ppc-only bugs
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f13wwoods: where "long time" is one release16:48
jds2001anyhow, onward to things that are actually on-topic16:48
for our remaining 12 minutes :)
wwoodspractically forever16:48
wwoodsin Fedora terms16:48
f13leitz: yes, for better or worse, ppc is a primary arch.16:48
If there are ppc blockers, they block.
f13wwoods: I'm pretty certain just last release we had a16:49
late rebuild a bunch of ppc stuff due to selinux
wwoodsit limps along because nobody can make the argument16:49
that it's too broken to maintain it further
wwoodsbecause it's never *quite* that broken16:49
f13and more recently we had broken ppc due to selinux.16:49
leitzf13: you guys work hard, I'll accept your priorities.  ;)16:49
f13as in, like the package that fixes it just went in16:49
yesterday or today
f13(kernel I do believe)16:49
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leitzjlaska, you have the updates to the matrix. Are the16:50
updates just not typed in or not tested/done?
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* leitz 's wife is out of town this weekend; may have some time to give.16:51
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wwoodsso anyway, f13, is there anything we're specifically16:51
waiting for to tag a new kernel?
wwoodsother than, y'know, a request from the kernel devs16:51
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f13wwoods: that's all I'm aware of.16:52
f13(waiting for a request, or the last voting on it)16:53
f13I don't see a current request for one16:53
f13although davej has super tagging powers, he may have snuck one in16:53
wwoodsI'll probably ping 'em and see what's up16:53
wwoodsthis is probably a question for the Desktop team, but16:54
poelcat brought it up before
wwoodsdo we consider "audio glitchy/broken on a large set of16:54
machines" blocker-worthy?
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wwoodsor poor 3d performance?16:54
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f13wwoods: I'd require input from teh package owners really16:55
wwoodsthese are examples of things that don't *break* the16:55
system, but would earn us some terrible press
f13yeah, but if they come back with "It'd be another 4 weeks16:56
before we can fix that" then I'm less inclined to call it a "blocker"
wwoodsso as usual: "it depends" is the answer16:56
wwoodsbut probably it's more like a Target than a Blocker16:56
wwoodsi.e. if the fix is clean and lands on-time, we'd take it16:56
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wwoodsany objections?16:57
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wwoodsright then16:58
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wwoodsACTION: review and improve Encryption (LUKS) test16:59
cases (jlaska et. al.)
wwoodsACTION: review and improve Upgrade test cases (wwoods et. al.)16:59
sticksterwwoods: f13: wrt glitchy audio...16:59
sticksterisn't "Glitch Free Audio" on our feature list?16:59
f13stickster: "glitch" is such a terrible term16:59
wwoodsPOLICY: Non-fatal but ugly problems (glitchy audio,17:00
poor 3d performance) are Target, not Blocker
f13stickster: the "glitch" referred to in the feature I17:00
think is not the same "glitch" that people are talking about
wwoodsyeah the term "Glitch-Free Audio" doesn't mean what17:00
you think it means
sticksterwwoods: heh. You wouldn't happen to have a bug17:00
handy, would you? I admit I haven't seen the particular reports
(droids) in question
wwoodsit specifically means the newer PulseAudio design for17:01
using system timers rather than sound-card IRQs to schedule audio
buffering etc.
wwoods"timer-based audio scheduling" is a more accurate term17:01
leitzwwoods, an e-mail going out with the Action items? I'll17:01
have to print it as my laptop is my test case. :)
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wwoodssee http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/pulse-glitch-free.html17:02
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wwoodsaw crud! I fatfingered the log command and failed to17:03
log this meeting
wwoodsanyone else logging?17:03
jds2001as always, I am :)17:03
jds2001I'll email ya the log17:03
wwoodsjds2001: many thanks17:03
wwoodsahem. continuing the summary:17:03
wwoodsACTION: begin moving unlikely F10Targets to F11Target17:04
(or F11Blocker if appropriate)
wwoodsanything else I should mention here?17:04
f13I can't think of much17:04
f13I'm working on the "phantom" groups issue today17:05
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wwoodsah yes17:05
f13where things are showing up as available to install, but17:05
only have one member or so. Basically it's going to be some comps
juggling and perhaps some exclusion of packages in the
wwoodsoh, bpepple was asking me about reverting Empathy in17:06
favor of Pidgin yesterday
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wwoodsthe (imaginary) spec we've been testing is, basically,17:07
"Does Empathy work as it's supposed to"
f13WOOO  We're down to minimal being single CD again, eveon on x8^-6417:07
f13er x86_6417:07
wwoodsnot "Does Empathy meet these actual requirements for17:07
our IM client"
wwoodstherefore, Empathy meets spec and I don't really have17:07
any recommendation there
f13yeah, rather late in the game to switch, but...17:08
viking_iceI says it's not ready next release or shipped them both..17:08
wwoodstherefore: I think the Feature process may need some17:08
guidance on writing specs/test plans
wwoods(further guidance)17:08
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f13I think pidgin has been pretty well tested17:08
wwoodsif the plan said: empathy has to do all these things17:08
viking_iceI was talking about empathy17:08
wwoodsand it didn't17:08
f13so a fallback to pidgin isn't terrible.17:08
wwoodsthen it'd be pretty clear17:08
wwoodsbut it doesn't. the test plan says, basically: empathy17:08
has to work.
wwoodswell, it does.17:08
f13from a QA perspective, I wouldn't have a problem17:09
approving such a fallback if the feature owner is requesting it.
viking_iceStrongly say it's not ready nor should we approach17:10
this like this ship them both or just pidgin.
jds2001i think both get shipped regardless.17:10
jds2001just which is default is in question.17:10
wwoodsyeah, Empathy is part of GNOME 2.2417:10
f13I have a qustion.17:11
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viking_iceI'm saying both are installed with the default..17:11
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wwoodsf13: shoot17:11
f13was the feature owner asking to revert the feature, or is17:11
there a witch hunt about to force the issue?
viking_iceso far empathy is..17:11
wwoodsIIRC bpepple is the empathy/telepathy maintainer17:11
f13IE was QA asked if they would accept a revert, or was QA17:11
asked if we would force a revert?
wwoodsthe former17:12
jds2001f13: bpepple and I were talking about this at OLF a17:12
few weeks back.
jds2001he really didn't think it'd be ready17:12
f13then we shouldn't really be discussing how well empathy17:12
works, or whether it passed it's QA marks
wwoodsit works fine for simple things but doesn't support17:12
stuff like.. file transfers
f13we should be talking about whether we'd accept a default17:12
change at this point to go back to pidgin.
wwoodsbut that's specifically what he asked: what QA thought17:12
of Empathy as the default
wwoodsand my response was: the plan says use it as the17:13
default and make sure it works. It works as expected.
f13that's different than asking us if we'd accept a revert.17:13
viking_iceqouting himself "<bpepple|lt> allquixotic: I17:13
actually use Empathy (and maintain the telepathy stack in Fedora), and
I don't really think it's ready ye"
wwoodsbpepple: ping?17:13
bpepplewwoods: I was going to talk about the feature process17:13
in the fesco meeting later if you want to attend.
wwoodsah, hooray17:13
wwoodsyes I do17:13
viking_iceinstall both pidgin and empathy or just pidgin17:14
with default installs
* bpepple is reading scroll back.17:14
viking_iceIs there anything against both of the im clients17:14
being installed by default?
wwoodsviking_ice: there's no discussion there, afaik.17:15
Empathy will be installed by default because it's required by GNOME
wwoodsthe only question is whether we install pidgin as well.17:15
f13viking_ice: bloat17:15
viking_iceThat's not a question..17:15
bpepplef13: I maintain the telepathy stack, and I co-maintain empathy.17:15
viking_iceInstall it as well17:15
viking_icegive people the chance to adapted in F10 by having17:16
them both then just have empathy in F11
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wwoodsbpepple: so were you wondering about the QA17:16
implications of installing pidgin by default? or asking what the QA
verdict on Empathy was?
wwoodsI mean we already install libpurple, since Empathy17:17
needs it for AIM
wwoodsso we already have a large chunk of pidgin installed17:17
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bpeppleI was asking about the qa verdict, but if the ship17:17
has sailing on changing the default I understand, but I think we're
going to take a beating from the community about changing the default.
f13for my vote, I would not be opposed to making the default17:18
switch at this point
wwoodsor just installing both17:18
bpepplewwoods: btw, jlaska was mentioning yesterday that aim17:18
wasn't working in Empathy, though he hasn't had time to file a bug.
viking_iceI say Both17:18
jds2001right, but there's a menu option of IM client17:18
wwoodsand having a release note mentioning that pidgin won't17:19
installed by default anymore in F11 (or whenever Empathy meets some
jds2001the discussion is whether that option gives you17:19
pidgin or empathy, right?
wwoodsbpepple: WFM17:19
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bpepplewwoods: that's good, if aim wasn't working I would17:20
say that would be a blocker.
f13jds2001: I don't think so17:20
f13jds2001: they would both be in the menu if both were installed17:20
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viking_icefor the first time actually 2 hours ago I managed17:20
to get a connection in empathy with msn
wwoodsjds2001: no, I think we have to install empathy, since17:20
it's part of GNOME.. but I guess not?
wwoodsyou can remove just the 'empathy' package without17:20
pulling out a bunch of GNOME deps
viking_iceand that's in the whole f10 dev cycle17:21
jds2001right - i was thinking more .desktop files17:21
wwoodstelepathy and empathy-libs still are requred by GNOME though17:21
bpepplewwoods: I don't think it's a hard requirement yet.17:21
jds2001there's an option in the menu that says something to17:22
the effect of IM, Video, Whatever (sorry on a Windows box atm)
bpepplebut we should verify that with walters or mclasen.17:22
Truthfully, they should be included in the discussion anyhow since
they are the feature owners on this.
wwoodsbpepple: should we ping 'em in advance of the FESCo meeting?17:23
f13jds2001: we can't have package sets that both use the17:23
same menu entry
f13jds2001: because then you wouldn't easily be able to have17:23
them both installed.
bpeppleyeah, definitely.  I was going to talk in more17:23
general terms of the feature process, since I thought it was too late
to be reverting Empathy.
jds2001f13: right, we're talking past each other here, but17:24
not a big deal :)
wwoodsIt's not too late to discuss it, anyway17:24
* jds2001 not a desktop guy at any rate.17:24
viking_iceHave both pidgin and empathy install. let the user17:24
choose and let empathy play catchup with pidgin and mature a bit. if
pidgin is not installed by default it will stir up the community and
empathy does not even support half of what pidgin does
wwoodsthe change can still be made, even if I would have17:24
been much happier if this discussion had happened earlier
wwoodsbut then, how would that have worked? at what point17:25
were we supposed to say "nope, this doesn't meet our unwritten
bpepplewwoods: agreed, that's what I would really like to17:25
cover in FESCo, so we don't have this happen again.
wwoodsanyway, that's for the FESCo meeting17:25
wwoodsthe takeaway for QA is: we need more detailed test17:26
plans / specs to make these kinds of decisions clearer
wwoodsI think that's all we need to say about that for now17:26
wwoods(FESCo meeting in ~30min)17:26
wwoodsanything else we should discuss?17:26
viking_iceOfcourse there is the whole wiki thing..17:27
viking_icebut that can wait..17:27
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wwoodsyeah, we got a bit tied up with f10pr stuff17:28
wwoodsviking_ice: we should discuss and send mail to17:28
-test-list or -devel-list or something
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wwoodsshort summary: we're bringing back the idea of the QA:17:29
wiki namespace and per-package test plans / bug reporting info
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wwoodswe need to define the required data for the page17:29
f13I gotta head to food, before it gets cold and wife gets angry17:29
viking_iceWell the devel-list and approval is what I need to17:29
move forward at this moment
wwoodsand get dev buy-in17:29
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wwoodsbut yeah17:29
wwoodslunches need to happen now17:30
viking_iceand of course cooper action + we need to make the17:30
default template first..
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wwoodsviking_ice: yeah, default template and a couple examples.17:31
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wwoodsanyway. let's call the meeting over17:31
wwoodsthanks for the time, sorry we went over17:31
wwoodsjds2001: if you can send me a log I would really appreciate it17:31
wwoodsI'll put it up with the other at17:31
jds2001sure thing :)17:32
wwoodsthanks a bunch!17:32
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Channel is17:32
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