| --- Log opened Wed Jan 21 11:06:30 2009 | ||
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | init | 11:06 | |
| wwoods | f13, jlaska, jds2001, poelcat: ping | 11:06 |
|---|---|---|
| * jlaska | 11:07 | |
| wwoods | and anyone else who's here for the QA meeting, say hello for the log | 11:07 |
| * f13 | 11:07 | |
| * viking_ice * | 11:07 | |
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| wwoods | agenda for this week is really just: Alpha | 11:11 |
| wwoods | in theory we froze yesterday | 11:11 |
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| wwoods | (insert stupid joke about snow in Raleigh here) | 11:11 |
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| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | Alpha status | 11:12 | |
| wwoods | the Alpha test result page is here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Fedora_11_Alpha_Install_Test_Results | 11:12 |
| wwoods | (yes, it's still on the wiki) | 11:12 |
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| wwoods | F11Alpha tracker bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=F11Alpha | 11:13 |
| buggbot | Bug 476773: medium, low, ---, notting@redhat.com, ASSIGNED, Fedora 11 Alpha tracker | 11:13 |
| wwoods | I see some test results from sandeen and f13 - thanks guys | 11:13 |
| f13 | I culled the tracker a bit yesterday too | 11:13 |
| wwoods | f13: so what's the nutshell summary of F11Alpha? I assume we're using rawhide as the test tree | 11:14 |
| f13 | yesterday's rawhide really | 11:15 |
| f13 | so the nutshell is. | 11:15 |
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| f13 | We've got one big that will likely hit a lot of people, and that's the nash mounting by label/UUID race condition. (bug 480667) | 11:16 |
| buggbot | Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=480667 medium, low, ---, pjones@redhat.com, NEW, nash unable to find dm devs by uuid or label causing boot to fail | 11:16 |
| f13 | however pjones hasn't been able to make any progress on it, and doesn't think he'll be able to in any reasonable amount of time for the alpha. There are some workarounds though | 11:16 |
| f13 | so my feeling is that we'll move that bug along to Beta, but post the workarounds when we post ALpha | 11:16 |
| * jds2001 wanders in late | 11:17 | |
| f13 | THere are two bugs related to networking in anaconda, bug 480769 (has a patch posted and tested), and bug 480856 (I still need to chat with dcantrell about how to fix this one right) | 11:18 |
| buggbot | Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=480769 medium, low, ---, jkeating@redhat.com, ASSIGNED, No networking configured after rawhide kickstart install | 11:18 |
| buggbot | Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=480856 medium, low, ---, dcantrell@redhat.com, NEW, resolv.conf gets overwritten when hostname with a domain is provided | 11:18 |
| f13 | the first one was my fault. | 11:18 |
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| f13 | that leaves a packaging conflict with a package that isn't even in the Fedora spin, so not critical and can get moved on (bug 473186) | 11:19 |
| buggbot | Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=473186 medium, medium, ---, jskala@redhat.com, ASSIGNED, Conflict with coreutils | 11:19 |
| wwoods | f13: "your fault" as in - you're responsible for the bad code, or you misconfigured something in your test? | 11:19 |
| f13 | a fontconfig bug that is supposedly fixed and I tagged it for the alpha (bug 480774) | 11:19 |
| buggbot | Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=480774 medium, low, ---, besfahbo@redhat.com, MODIFIED, Fontconfig cache files in bogus ~/${localstatedir} | 11:19 |
| f13 | and finally a bug that will hit anybody doing live from USB which is a big area of people (bug 480112) | 11:20 |
| buggbot | Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=480112 medium, low, ---, atkac@redhat.com, NEW, mtools fails | 11:20 |
| f13 | wwoods: my fault as in I'm responsible for the bad code. I fixed one bug in that code area but introduced another. | 11:20 |
| wwoods | f13: ah. oops. | 11:20 |
| wwoods | yeah, liveUSB is fun and popular | 11:21 |
| f13 | so we need to get pressure on somebody to fix the mtools issue | 11:22 |
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| f13 | the rest (anaconda) should be fixable today provided dcantrell shows up and gives me some guidance | 11:22 |
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| jlaska | from what I can gather so far ... ppc is not bootable | 11:23 |
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| wwoods | I'll have to ping notting about getting a traceback for that mtools bug (or a reproducer) | 11:24 |
| f13 | oh right, jlaska why isn't that bug on the tracker? | 11:25 |
| jlaska | I'll be happy to put it on the tracker | 11:25 |
| wwoods | please do | 11:25 |
| jlaska | roger ... added | 11:26 |
| wwoods | how close are we to needing to start the push? are we comfortable releasing F11a without ppc if it comes to that? | 11:26 |
| f13 | well. that's a jwb question I thik. | 11:27 |
| jds2001 | our 6 ppc users might take exception, but other than that...... | 11:27 |
| f13 | he's the best thing we have to a person at the helm of ppc | 11:27 |
| jwb | it's fine | 11:27 |
| f13 | in order to meet our Tuesday deadline, I'd need to start composing no later than tomorrow | 11:27 |
| f13 | we can mash pretty quickly now, (2~ hours) so we can do some tagging tomorrow and start mashing-composing in the afternoon | 11:28 |
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| f13 | but I have to get bits posted for mirrors by Friday EOB | 11:28 |
| jlaska | I think it's worth investigating the ppc bug and formulating a plan | 11:28 |
| wwoods | so, tomorrow "afternoon" we need final builds tagged? got a rough time for that? | 11:28 |
| jlaska | if the fix is too hard, we can certainly postpone | 11:28 |
| f13 | jlaska: I do too, what resources do you have for this investigation? | 11:29 |
| wwoods | right, so we'll need an idea of how much time we have - and how much time the fix will take - to make that decision | 11:29 |
| wwoods | I've got a ppc64 machine at the ready for testin', but I need bits | 11:30 |
| f13 | other than jwb and dwmw2, we don't really have any Fedora ppc resources. Can we borrow some RHT ppc resources? | 11:30 |
| jlaska | f13: I can test it out the wazzoo | 11:30 |
| f13 | jlaska: we need somebody producing something for us to test :/ | 11:30 |
| jwb | it would be nice | 11:30 |
| jlaska | hardware isn't a problem for me | 11:30 |
| jlaska | f13: right | 11:30 |
| f13 | hardware wasn't the resources I was referring to | 11:30 |
| * jlaska nods | 11:31 | |
| jlaska | then I guess that's our resolution for now ... no resources available? | 11:31 |
| f13 | I have multiple ppc here too | 11:31 |
| f13 | jlaska: I think we need to send up a flare within RHT | 11:31 |
| wwoods | PPC FUBAR, PLZ HALP | 11:32 |
| jlaska | I'll see if dhowells has any cycles | 11:32 |
| f13 | hrm, no boot.iso for ppc today :/ | 11:32 |
| wwoods | okay, we'll see if we can pull in someone to look at bug 480842 | 11:34 |
| buggbot | Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=480842 high, low, ---, kernel-maint@redhat.com, NEW, F11 Rawhide kernel fails to boot on ppc - /vmlinuz: Not a valid ELF image | 11:34 |
| f13 | 5B./usr/lib/kernel-wrapper/virtex405-head.o: error while loading shared libraries: ./usr/lib/kernel-wrapper/virtex405-head.o: only ET_DYN and ET_EXEC can be loaded | 11:35 |
| wwoods | if we don't have any forward progress by.. f13? pick a cutoff time tomorrow? | 11:35 |
| f13 | I wonder if that has anything to do with it. | 11:35 |
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| f13 | wwoods: tomorrow, 3pm Pacific, 6pm Eastern | 11:36 |
| -!- nphilipp [n=nils@nat/redhat/x-90635dcf73adb61e] has joined #fedora-meeting | 11:36 | |
| wwoods | Okay. If no forward progress by then, we'll have to go forward without ppc for Alpha, I guess. We'll still make it a priority to get fixed for Rawhide ASAP | 11:36 |
| wwoods | unless anyone thinks it's worth delaying alpha for ppc? | 11:37 |
| wwoods | I think half our PPC users are in the meeting so we'll go forward with this plan | 11:38 |
| f13 | should probably throw that out at the lists for a day | 11:38 |
| wwoods | I'll mention it when I mail f-t-l with the log | 11:38 |
| jlaska | thanks | 11:39 |
| wwoods | now that I think harder.. this is a non-blocking freeze, so I assume there are alpha trees somewhere? | 11:41 |
| f13 | the closest we have is yesterday's rawhide | 11:42 |
| f13 | I was still trying to decide if we were going to sign packages or not, which we aren't. | 11:42 |
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| wwoods | okay, so rawhide == alpha unless otherwise noted | 11:43 |
| f13 | and I wanted a fixed anaconda in the release candidate tree | 11:43 |
| f13 | yesterday's rawhide. | 11:43 |
| wwoods | oh. that's harder. | 11:43 |
| f13 | today's rawhide has things beyond the alpha tag | 11:43 |
| wwoods | can you add a link to the test results page? | 11:43 |
| f13 | sure | 11:46 |
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| wwoods | okay, so, actions: | 11:47 |
| wwoods | - wwoods to follow up on mtools/liveUSB problem (bug 480112) | 11:47 |
| buggbot | Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=480112 medium, low, ---, atkac@redhat.com, NEW, mtools fails | 11:47 |
| wwoods | - f13 to add link to alpha candidate tree to test page (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Fedora_11_Alpha_Install_Test_Results | 11:47 |
| wwoods | - jlaska + jwb to try to find someone to look at ppc bug (480842) | 11:48 |
| wwoods | cutoff for new builds is 6pm US eastern (2300UTC) tomorrow | 11:49 |
| * poelcat has a question after ppc discussion is done | 11:49 | |
| wwoods | beyond those things - what needs testing in the next day? | 11:49 |
| f13 | Live images | 11:50 |
| * viking_ice has several other matters to discuss as well after the ppc discussion | 11:50 | |
| f13 | and things still blank on the testing page | 11:50 |
| wwoods | right. (are there not Live cases on the testing page? we should fix that..) | 11:50 |
| f13 | yeah, we should. | 11:50 |
| wwoods | anyone want to throw a couple Live cases on there, or put together a separate Live results page (like we had for F10)? | 11:51 |
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| viking_ice | wwoods: throw it in the qa trac | 11:53 |
| wwoods | throw.. what? | 11:53 |
| wwoods | add a ticket to create the live results stuff? | 11:53 |
| viking_ice | wwoods: Create a ticket in the fedora-qa trac instance on fedora hosted that a tescases are needed for the live spins | 11:55 |
| wwoods | I guess that's a good idea. the trac instance kind of appeared without my assistance so I'm not quite used to it yet | 11:55 |
| viking_ice | on the wiki | 11:55 |
| jlaska | yes, viking_ice and I would like to experiment with tracking all administrative requests for the QA group using trac tickets (for test plan/case update/create requests) etc. | 11:55 |
| wwoods | sounds fine | 11:55 |
| jds2001 | wwoods: i made you the admin :) | 11:55 |
| jds2001 | so if you can grant rights to viking_ice and jlaska that'd be hotness. | 11:56 |
| poelcat | ~ | 11:56 |
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| wwoods | gladly | 11:56 |
| wwoods | okay - what else? | 11:56 |
| viking_ice | There are few more matters to discuses 1. New QA wiki page --> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Johannbg/Draft/QA 2.We have now our own Fedora QA trac instance on fedorahosted.org so lets start using it advertise it etc. 3 Formal voted QA SIG and discussions held in open and decision made in the open.. Meetings agenda published ahead of the meeting + I'm sure polecat can give points to the current self pointed and the new one if | 11:57 |
| viking_ice | he does not remain the one and the same person on how to communicate to a community .. 5. Cloud resource Ideas 6. Wiki clean up/rewrite 7. Status on Test Cases for F11 Features 8. Statuses on test cases for package/service in general ( automation wiki etc ) | 11:57 |
| f13 | poelcat: what was your topic? | 11:57 |
| f13 | (just so that we can get a full view of the agenda) | 11:57 |
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| wwoods | added jlaska and johannbg as TRAC_ADMIN in fedora-qa | 12:00 |
| wwoods | poelcat: ping? topic? | 12:00 |
| poelcat | f13: not urgent for now, but I noticed on schedule there is not room for three snapshots during beta | 12:00 |
| poelcat | http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-releng-tasks.html | 12:00 |
| wwoods | sounds like a rel-eng topic, but my informal suggestion would be: so let's do 2 | 12:01 |
| poelcat | for some reason we only have three weeks for beta testing vs. four for f10 | 12:01 |
| poelcat | wwoods: i thought it was a testing topic which is why i raised it :) | 12:01 |
| poelcat | the last snapshot would overlap final freeze | 12:01 |
| f13 | poelcat: weird. Oh well, we'll just do two snapshots | 12:01 |
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| poelcat | okay | 12:02 |
| viking_ice | poelcat: is that week missing not the one that went of during the last release delay? | 12:02 |
| jlaska | poelcat: what optiosn do we have? | 12:02 |
| * poelcat updates scheule and goes away | 12:02 | |
| wwoods | I think the origial design was "weekly snapshots", not "exactly 3 snapshots" | 12:02 |
| wwoods | so if there's only 2 weeks available, we'll do 2 snapshots | 12:02 |
| poelcat | wwoods: just trying to help, sorry to waste your time | 12:03 |
| jlaska | does this impact if/how devel content needs to be in ... or is that already accounted for? | 12:03 |
| jlaska | these are just "snapshots" ... so I'm guessing so | 12:03 |
| wwoods | no, not a waste of time - just a straightforward solution, I think | 12:03 |
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| wwoods | if you're nervous about doing less snapshots let's talk later about how we can alleviate that a bit | 12:04 |
| wwoods | ok? | 12:05 |
| * poelcat is not nervous about anything | 12:05 | |
| poelcat | you can move on | 12:05 |
| wwoods | fair 'nuff | 12:05 |
| wwoods | okay, viking_ice's topics | 12:05 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA meeting | new QA wiki page | 12:06 | |
| viking_ice | 1. replace the old wiki pages for this one --> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Johannbg/Draft/QA | 12:06 |
| viking_ice | This is much more simpler layout and tidier than our current one | 12:06 |
| wwoods | agreed | 12:06 |
| wwoods | and AFAICT it contains all the important info | 12:07 |
| wwoods | the old page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA | 12:07 |
| wwoods | anyone opposed to replacing it? | 12:07 |
| jlaska | viking_ice: care to kick off a ticket for that change? | 12:07 |
| jlaska | none here :) | 12:07 |
| f13 | WORKSFORME | 12:07 |
| f13 | my only nit is that the Development link may send people off into developing packages for Fedora, rather thanhelping the QA effort develop QA tools and infrastructure | 12:08 |
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| jds2001 | viking_ice: just make sure to name pages according to the proper standard. | 12:08 |
| viking_ice | f13: where they end is a win win for Fedora :) | 12:08 |
| wwoods | yeah, I guess we could make a ticket for it, but.. I'd prefer we just JFDI and edit the page after it's been changed | 12:08 |
| jlaska | wwoods: agreed, we can do both :) | 12:08 |
| * jds2001 doesn't like getting bogged down in bearuacracy | 12:08 | |
| jds2001 | of opening tickets, deciding by committee who does what, etc. as wwoods said, this should be part of "Project JFDI" | 12:09 |
| jlaska | no objections for now | 12:09 |
| wwoods | oh, true - the wiki team likes it better if you name things like "Quality Control" rather than "QA/QC" | 12:10 |
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| wwoods | but, yeah, viking_ice: please go ahead and replace the current QA page with yours | 12:10 |
| wwoods | and thanks very much for your help | 12:10 |
| viking_ice | let's move on | 12:11 |
| wwoods | I assume you'll need to move QA/QC as well, and the Test Days page | 12:11 |
| wwoods | but yes | 12:11 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | Trac instance | 12:11 | |
| wwoods | obviously, we have a trac instance now | 12:11 |
| wwoods | (thanks for getting that set up) | 12:11 |
| f13 | yay | 12:11 |
| wwoods | myself, viking_ice, and jlaska are admins | 12:11 |
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| wwoods | https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-qa/ | 12:12 |
| viking_ice | This was apply so we can keep track our selfs what needs to be done etc and for maintainers/developers to file a ticket for test cases for their feature and general other related QA stuff | 12:13 |
| viking_ice | Trac instance is kinda self explanatory so I think this can just be closed with lets start using it :) | 12:13 |
| wwoods | yeah, it's an excellent idea - we can have tickets for QA tasks on e.g. features, tracking which ones need a spec / test plan written, etc | 12:14 |
| wwoods | great idea, guys. thanks for doing that. | 12:14 |
| wwoods | let's use it. | 12:14 |
| viking_ice | yup and will even come more in handy when we start getting cloud resources and thinks are getting a bit more automated.. | 12:14 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | Make QA a formal SIG | 12:14 | |
| jlaska | let's start small and keep it simple at first until we can establish a process for creating/assigning/working tickets etc.. | 12:14 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: your list was missing #4 - is #3 "make QA a formal sig with a voted-on board" and #4 "publish agendas before the metting"? | 12:15 |
| wwoods | err, meeting | 12:16 |
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| viking_ice | well yeah | 12:17 |
| wwoods | okay then | 12:17 |
| wwoods | if we're going to make QA a formal SIG - with a board, etc - we need to establish voting procedure, sponsorship procedure, board size and composition | 12:17 |
| f13 | wwoods: Formal sigs don't necessarily have to have a voted in board. | 12:18 |
| viking_ice | And that SIG needs to be made of a member of other SIG ( as I see it ) | 12:18 |
| wwoods | I think that was what viking_ice was proposing, though | 12:18 |
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| wwoods | I think it would be good to *at least* establish board size/composition and sponsorship procedure | 12:19 |
| viking_ice | Ever since ( after the i586 incident ) I joined the loop and before that there has not been any formal QA atleast not my knowledge | 12:20 |
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| viking_ice | At that time it was wwoods or jeremy I think at the whole who are QA and now just you wwoods right? have not seen much of jeremy for a long time | 12:21 |
| wwoods | most of the reason this stuff hasn't been formalized in the past is.. we just don't have time for that kind of administative overhead | 12:21 |
| jds2001 | or really the need, IMO. | 12:21 |
| f13 | viking_ice: there was a single Red Hat resource dedicated to Fedora QA at the time, and that was wwoods | 12:21 |
| f13 | viking_ice: everything else was volunteer | 12:21 |
| viking_ice | QA is more then being just testers for team anaconda | 12:21 |
| wwoods | jeremy's got a lot going on these days, but yes, essentially I lead the QA "group", but the composition (and leadership) of that group is otherwise undefined | 12:21 |
| wwoods | I'm hoping to get more assitance in this area very soon | 12:22 |
| wwoods | err, assistance | 12:23 |
| viking_ice | There are discussions like the update vs updates-testing stuff that need a final decisions | 12:23 |
| wwoods | because I can't do release testing *and* community management *and* tool development | 12:23 |
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| wwoods | (and test plan development and on and on) | 12:23 |
| viking_ice | hence A QA SIG | 12:24 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: did you have a proposal for the board size/composition, voting procedure/frequency, etc? | 12:24 |
| wwoods | or are you suggesting that we should start writing one? | 12:24 |
| viking_ice | Think about it mostly for now perhaps F12 Feature .. | 12:25 |
| viking_ice | At least this is noting that's being done today.. | 12:25 |
| viking_ice | This is something that needs to be discussed on test-list | 12:26 |
| wwoods | agreed. | 12:27 |
| viking_ice | Matter 4 Discussions held in open and decision made in the open.. | 12:27 |
| wwoods | well, IRC and test-list are "open", so far as that goes, but better use of the mailing list would be preferable | 12:27 |
| viking_ice | There has been already a certain thread on devel regarding this issue | 12:28 |
| wwoods | for discussing designs and long-term goals and things | 12:28 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: which thread are you referring to? | 12:29 |
| viking_ice | yup no decisions made at the water cooler at a certain company unless at least people are kept involved | 12:29 |
| viking_ice | Spin meeting | 12:30 |
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| viking_ice | From my perspective that thread should have been on their mailing list | 12:30 |
| viking_ice | The announcement was fine and good from my perspective | 12:31 |
| wwoods | https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-January/msg00695.html | 12:31 |
| wwoods | (for the record) | 12:31 |
| viking_ice | Anyway all this narrows down lack of communication | 12:32 |
| jds2001 | viking_ice: what thread? | 12:32 |
| viking_ice | Let's just try to keep that to minimum shall we :) | 12:32 |
| jds2001 | viking_ice: i dont see anything objectionable about that post. | 12:33 |
| wwoods | it's the "let's not exclude the community by having meetings offline" thread | 12:33 |
| wwoods | that's spilled onto the fedora planet | 12:33 |
| jds2001 | we *did* have a spins meeting at fudcon | 12:33 |
| wwoods | apparently some people objected to the fact that things were decided at FUDCon | 12:33 |
| jds2001 | but that's what fudcon is for. We also had a FESCo meeting, and I (rightly) took heat for that. | 12:33 |
| jwb | hi | 12:34 |
| jwb | we didn't decide anything | 12:34 |
| jwb | we came up with a skeleton process proposal | 12:34 |
| jwb | people bitched about that and ignored the fact that it was a proposal | 12:34 |
| wwoods | I know | 12:34 |
| f13 | jds2001: there was precidence for having fesco meetings at fudcons | 12:34 |
| jwb | it was voted on at the Spins SIG meeting, which is where the decision actually occurred | 12:34 |
| wwoods | right. The discussion happened at FUDCon, fully-formed proposal went to the list, a week was given for discussion with vote to happen at the meeting | 12:35 |
| wwoods | I don't see anything wrong, except maybe that the proposal wasn't clearly labeled as a discussion draft / proposal | 12:36 |
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| wwoods | so, in short: watercooler talk still OK, watercooler decisions not OK | 12:37 |
| wwoods | so make sure that any proposal that comes from watercooler / FUDCon talk | 12:37 |
| wwoods | is clearly labeled as DISCUSSION DRAFT / PROPOSAL / NOT FINAL | 12:37 |
| wwoods | and give people a week or so to argue before voting on it. | 12:38 |
| f13 | there are those that will file IRC under "watercooler" | 12:38 |
| jwb | which is fair-ish | 12:38 |
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| f13 | so perhaps; unless a topic was pre-announced on foo-mailinglist with enough time before a meeting, said meeting cannot "decide" on topic until proper mailing list time has been reached. | 12:39 |
| f13 | (god I hate what I just wrote) | 12:39 |
| wwoods | heh | 12:39 |
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| wwoods | how about: don't make important decisions without giving the relevant mailing list(s) some time (suggested: a week) to argue | 12:39 |
| jds2001 | i see that as more of an impediment to progress instead of helping it. | 12:39 |
| f13 | boils down to the same thing. | 12:40 |
| wwoods | things like wiki page edits? not important enough to merit discussion | 12:40 |
| f13 | jds2001: I do too, but then again it's easy for us to attend all the interesting IRC meetings | 12:40 |
| f13 | jds2001: if we had to get up at 3am to attend IRC meeting so that our opinion could be heard in time, we might think differently | 12:40 |
| wwoods | it's only a small impediment, so long as we're careful with the interpretation of "important decisions" | 12:40 |
| viking_ice | jds2001: I disagree | 12:40 |
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| wwoods | most decisions we make are not important enough to warrant list discussion | 12:41 |
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| viking_ice | wwoods; I disagree but hey.. | 12:41 |
| viking_ice | wwoods; well most decisions so far.. | 12:41 |
| wwoods | e.g. not delaying alpha for ppc, "should we use trac?", moving the wiki page, etc. | 12:42 |
| jwb | now wait a damn minute | 12:42 |
| jwb | oh... you were goading me | 12:42 |
| * jwb ignores | 12:42 | |
| wwoods | heh | 12:42 |
| wwoods | yes, I'm bringing ppc to the list | 12:42 |
| wwoods | even though the landing ramp is so very short | 12:43 |
| wwoods | okay so: we won't be making important decisions without running it by the lists (and therefore the rest of the community). | 12:44 |
| viking_ice | +1 | 12:44 |
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| wwoods | deciding which ones are "important decisions" is left, in the end, to the judgement of the team lead | 12:45 |
| wwoods | but any team lead who abuses this to exclude the community does so at their own peril. | 12:45 |
| viking_ice | indeed if that team lead is voted upon | 12:45 |
| viking_ice | by the community | 12:46 |
| wwoods | well, we'll see about that. I'd rather avoid bringing no-confidence voting and other beauracracy into it | 12:46 |
| wwoods | and just mandate "DON'T BE A DICK" | 12:46 |
| f13 | anything else on the agenda? | 12:47 |
| wwoods | and if the entire community thinks you're failing, well, you need to re-examine your priorities and get some help. | 12:47 |
| f13 | my stomach is angry at missing breakfast. | 12:47 |
| viking_ice | 5. Cloud resource | 12:47 |
| viking_ice | Yes we need lots of those for automated testing. | 12:47 |
| wwoods | 5. Cloud resource Ideas, 6. Wiki clean up/rewrite 7. Status on Test Cases for F11 Features, 8. Statuses on test cases for package/service in general (automation, wiki, etc) | 12:47 |
| wwoods | infrastructure's working on it, and we're still pretty far off from being able to do automated *functional* testing | 12:48 |
| wwoods | we're working on some automated sanity testing etc, as discussed at FUDCon | 12:48 |
| wwoods | http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=autoqa.git;a=summary | 12:48 |
| wwoods | that stuff - esp. the lab-in-a-box / post-install-check test - is a pre-requisite for any automated functional testing | 12:49 |
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| wwoods | infrastructure's working on the cloud stuff, and AFAICT they'll be ready before we will. | 12:49 |
| wwoods | they're aware that we're going to want to use some of those resources for automated testing and confident they'll be able to handle it. | 12:50 |
| wwoods | but that's probably F12-era at the earliest. | 12:50 |
| wwoods | okay. 6. Wiki clean up/rewrite | 12:50 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | wiki cleanup/rewrite | 12:50 | |
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| wwoods | yeah. we have the QA: namespace now, and the wiki guys want natural language names for pages | 12:51 |
| wwoods | (and I do to, to a certain extent) | 12:51 |
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| wwoods | so: put test cases and plans in the QA namespace. use natural names for them. | 12:51 |
| wwoods | we don't have established naming guidelines - yet | 12:51 |
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| f13 | I think a good rule of thumb is to name it how somebody would search for it | 12:52 |
| viking_ice | Me and jlaska have been bouncing of ideas of total QA rewrite test cases etc and have been moving closer to ( tlp.sf.net ) of writing those test cases | 12:53 |
| f13 | I'd search for "<package> test" | 12:53 |
| f13 | or <package> QA | 12:53 |
| f13 | or just <package> within the QA namespace | 12:53 |
| viking_ice | I would do that to search for <package> | 12:53 |
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| * wwoods submits a ticket for himself: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-qa/ticket/4 | 12:54 | |
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| f13 | clearly we need <package> to be on it's own, what words/names we put around it is the fun question | 12:54 |
| wwoods | if anyone else wants to take it, feel free | 12:54 |
| wwoods | yeah, <package> would probably have links to the test plan, debugging tips, etc. | 12:54 |
| wwoods | so that's ongoing, we need naming guidelines, discuss on-list and/or in that ticket. | 12:55 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | status of test cases for F11 Features | 12:55 | |
| viking_ice | this is my example structure of that <package>http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Johannbg/Draft/QA/file-roller | 12:55 |
| wwoods | Test Cases ("How to Test") aren't required until Beta. | 12:56 |
| wwoods | at Alpha we require each accepted feature to have a Scope section that specifies what, exactly, the feature will do (and what things it changes) | 12:56 |
| wwoods | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:FeatureAcceptedF11 | 12:57 |
| f13 | wwoods: I just meant urls should be QA:<something>_<package>_<more_something> | 12:57 |
| f13 | so that a search for <package> will find the <something>_<Package>_<more_something> pages. | 12:57 |
| wwoods | f13: right | 12:58 |
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| viking_ice | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Johannbg/Draft/QA/Test_Days/Features/20SecondStartup | 12:59 |
| wwoods | now. should we create categories - say "QA Approved Feature Page", "Features with incomplete Scope", "Features with bad test plans" | 12:59 |
| wwoods | and put the features in those categories as appropriate? | 13:00 |
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| viking_ice | ups.. | 13:00 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: did you see my message about using wiki categories? | 13:01 |
| wwoods | "QA Approved Feature Page", "Features with incomplete Scope", "Features with bad test plans" | 13:01 |
| viking_ice | ugh.. :) | 13:01 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: is there a better way to do it? | 13:02 |
| wwoods | we need some way to coordinate QA's review of feature pages | 13:02 |
| viking_ice | dont have anything better <yet> (: | 13:02 |
| wwoods | and to mark pages so FESCo knows QA's disposition for each | 13:02 |
| wwoods | so until someone has a better idea | 13:03 |
| wwoods | let's use those categories | 13:03 |
| viking_ice | fine by me... | 13:03 |
| viking_ice | Feature 20SecondStartup Test case is nearly complete.. | 13:04 |
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| wwoods | yeah, that's a really good one | 13:05 |
| wwoods | I'll create those categories and start using them | 13:05 |
| wwoods | and I'll try to flesh out the text of the category page | 13:05 |
| viking_ice | h\h was unresponsive when I ping him.. on devel | 13:05 |
| wwoods | to tell people why their feature is marked as having incomplete scope (and what to do about it) | 13:05 |
| wwoods | not sure what time zone h\h is in, but he's not always easy to find | 13:06 |
| wwoods | emailing him might work better? | 13:06 |
| wwoods | anyway, finally: | 13:06 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | Status of test cases for package/service in general (automation, wiki, etc) | 13:06 | |
| wwoods | as mentioned earlier - it will be many months until we can do automated testing of packages/services | 13:07 |
| wwoods | as for writing test plans etc. and putting them in the wiki, at least... | 13:07 |
| viking_ice | the wiki and the test cases are in the works.. | 13:07 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: do you have anything to report here? you said you were talking with jlaska about this? | 13:07 |
| wwoods | the file-roller page looks like a good template | 13:07 |
| viking_ice | well does not scale we need to come up with template for gui apps ( open file save file etc ) | 13:08 |
| viking_ice | Kinda bumped into that early :) | 13:08 |
| f13 | h\h is in Germany IIRC | 13:09 |
| viking_ice | This was written as an example for other maintainer/packager | 13:09 |
| viking_ice | the file-roller | 13:10 |
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| viking_ice | as on how to write test-cases | 13:10 |
| viking_ice | If they want us to do it for them they can file a ticket? | 13:10 |
| wwoods | sure, I don't see why not.. except they should know that we're still figuring out the format and stuff | 13:11 |
| wwoods | so it might take a little while | 13:11 |
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| viking_ice | well jfdi on that one getting something down is better then having nothing.. | 13:12 |
| wwoods | agreed | 13:12 |
| wwoods | so yeah, if a maintainer wants help writing a test plan for their package, they can file a ticket and we'll do whatever we can | 13:12 |
| wwoods | oh, we should probably have a link to the trac instance on the main QA wiki page | 13:12 |
| viking_ice | when we can.. | 13:12 |
| wwoods | (unless it's there and I just didn't see it) | 13:13 |
| viking_ice | its not on the new QA page ( wrote that one long time ago ) | 13:13 |
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| viking_ice | will add it.. | 13:14 |
| wwoods | good stuff | 13:14 |
| wwoods | okay. anything else? we're waaay over time | 13:14 |
| viking_ice | nothing more from me for now.. | 13:14 |
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| wwoods | alright then. log will go up in a few seconds | 13:15 |
| f13 | cheers | 13:15 |
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| wwoods | thanks for your time, folks, and sorry it took a while | 13:15 |
| wwoods | viking_ice, thanks again for your initiative here | 13:15 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule | 13:15 | |
| --- Log closed Wed Jan 21 13:15:54 2009 | ||
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