| --- Log opened Wed Feb 04 10:06:27 2009 | ||
| * jlaska in another meeting, but lurking | 10:06 | |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | init | 10:06 | |
| -!- nicubunu [n=nicubunu@mail.apsro.com] has left #fedora-meeting ["Fading into sunset"] | 10:06 | |
| wwoods | f13, poelcat, jds2001: ping | 10:07 |
|---|---|---|
| wwoods | anyone else here, say hi for the log | 10:07 |
| -!- tk009 [n=tk009@adsl-074-166-251-205.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #fedora-meeting | 10:07 | |
| * viking_ice Hello | 10:08 | |
| wwoods | I know leitz was here, but he's apparently going to brb | 10:09 |
| wwoods | anyway, I'll get started with a quick review of Alpha, and anyone joining late can just scroll through it | 10:09 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | F11Alpha status | 10:09 | |
| wwoods | for reference, the tracker bug: http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=F11Alpha | 10:09 |
| buggbot | Bug 476773: medium, low, ---, notting@redhat.com, ASSIGNED, Fedora 11 Alpha tracker | 10:10 |
| wwoods | and the installer test results: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Fedora_11_Alpha_Install_Test_Results | 10:10 |
| bristot | hi | 10:10 |
| wwoods | As far as I know, Fedora 11 Alpha is on its way to the mirrors | 10:11 |
| wwoods | this test cycle was a bit hectic. things kept going wrong and it kept taking a while to notice | 10:11 |
| wwoods | we ended up going through *9* sets of release candidate images before we got it all together | 10:12 |
| wwoods | one of the major problems was that f13 was building images in two different places - at home, and in the facility in phoenix where we do the official builds | 10:12 |
| wwoods | and then there's also rawhide, which is built automatically in phoenix | 10:13 |
| wwoods | jlaska and I were testing the disk images f13 made in phoenix, f13 was testing his home-built images, and clumens was testing rawhide | 10:13 |
| leitz_brb | here. | 10:13 |
| wwoods | and we were all getting different results | 10:13 |
| -!- leitz_brb is now known as leitz | 10:13 | |
| wwoods | this caused a lot of confusion | 10:13 |
| -!- adamw_stupidnick [n=AdamW@nat/redhat/x-1aa3d8d3927ba7e7] has joined #fedora-meeting | 10:13 | |
| wwoods | (clumens is in a different office from jlaska and I) | 10:13 |
| wwoods | err. jlaska and me. stupid english. | 10:14 |
| wwoods | anyway. we're going to try to solve that problem by setting up some notification system | 10:14 |
| wwoods | so when stuff gets built in phoenix it can notify people, and we can get it automatically synced to our various offices/homes | 10:15 |
| wwoods | so we get notification of new builds *and* copies of the official builds | 10:15 |
| wwoods | naturally this will all be developed in the open so you can join in the fun. | 10:15 |
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| leitz | Not sure that I understand the build process, but what prevents us from twiddling at home and building in pheonix? | 10:17 |
| leitz | Is there a difficulty uploading changes? | 10:17 |
| wwoods | define "twiddling"? | 10:17 |
| wwoods | leitz: it turned out that the images that f13 was building in his "lab" were slightly different from the ones built in phoenix, somehow | 10:17 |
| wwoods | the ones from PHX would crash at the timezone screen; the ones f13 and clumens were using didn't | 10:18 |
| wwoods | this was bug 482907 | 10:18 |
| buggbot | Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=482907 medium, low, ---, anaconda-maint-list@redhat.com, CLOSED RAWHIDE, f11alpha anaconda hanging when moving to timezone screen | 10:18 |
| wwoods | everyone's welcomed - and encouraged - to test the official bits at home, on whatever hardware you can get your hands on | 10:19 |
| leitz | So he was using a pheonix build that crashed on others but not in his lab? | 10:19 |
| leitz | I want his lab... | 10:19 |
| wwoods | no, he was using home-built images that worked on his machines | 10:20 |
| wwoods | built from the same package set, using the same tools | 10:20 |
| wwoods | but some minor variation in the host system performing the build caused major differences | 10:20 |
| wwoods | so his worked and the "official" ones crashed | 10:20 |
| leitz | Ah.. | 10:20 |
| wwoods | so, for the moment we can't assume that test results for home-built images are valid | 10:20 |
| wwoods | we need to make sure everyone tests the same bits. | 10:21 |
| leitz | Until we identify the "minor variation". | 10:21 |
| wwoods | right | 10:21 |
| wwoods | eventually we might be able to set up a build script that eliminates that factor | 10:21 |
| wwoods | so people can build their own identical images at home | 10:21 |
| wwoods | until then - home-built images don't count for release testing. | 10:21 |
| leitz | Depends, there are a *lot* of potential factors. | 10:21 |
| wwoods | which means we need to provide bits | 10:22 |
| wwoods | which means we need a site that only rel-eng/qa is allowed to get at, because otherwise it gets overwhelmed with swarms of onlookers who aren't actually going to contribute | 10:22 |
| leitz | And we have a document that says "Here's how to grab the latest proper build and try it out?" | 10:22 |
| wwoods | and then we can't get images, we can't get testing done, etc. | 10:23 |
| wwoods | we have some of that - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Fedora_11_Install_Results_Template | 10:23 |
| wwoods | we have an actual test plan from F10 - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/TestPlans/Fedora10Install | 10:24 |
| wwoods | which needs to be adapted for F11 | 10:24 |
| wwoods | and clarified | 10:24 |
| viking_ice | both of these need to be rewritten and simplified | 10:24 |
| wwoods | but, yeah, basically, the QA/rel-eng team should get notification of new candidate builds and where to get 'em | 10:24 |
| leitz | Okay, let me go over the process after the meeting and I'll see if it's idiot proof. And where it could use some clarity. | 10:25 |
| wwoods | and we'll have a page to coordinate testing (and explanations of the test cases) | 10:25 |
| * leitz is great at idiot testing... | 10:25 | |
| -!- lvillani [n=lvillani@kde/developer/lvillani] has left #fedora-meeting ["Leaving"] | 10:25 | |
| wwoods | it's pretty rough right now, there's a lot of institutional knowledge buried in here | 10:25 |
| leitz | yeah, I noticed. :) | 10:25 |
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| leitz | That's what I'm looking to deal with. | 10:26 |
| wwoods | definitely in need of simplification, which is why I haven't just copied the F10 one for F11 | 10:26 |
| wwoods | I want to distill the F10 info into something clearer for F11. | 10:26 |
| viking_ice | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Test_Days/2009-02-05 | 10:26 |
| viking_ice | Closer to the new look and feel | 10:26 |
| wwoods | I like it! | 10:27 |
| viking_ice | and guys please refrain from writing your life story in the comment field | 10:27 |
| leitz | viking_ice, I'll send you my notes for review, okay? | 10:27 |
| wwoods | heh, yeah, those tables get all wonky if one of the fields gets really big | 10:27 |
| viking_ice | magic of using the wiki | 10:27 |
| viking_ice | but as always that's what we got that's what we use for now.. | 10:27 |
| wwoods | so there are still a couple of outstanding issues with F11a - bug 478999 is the big one | 10:27 |
| jlaska | different teams need to gather and display results in different formats ... which makes wiki great for playing around with different organizational approaches | 10:27 |
| buggbot | Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=478999 high, medium, ---, ajax@redhat.com, ASSIGNED, old-style bitmap fonts not provided by X server | 10:27 |
| wwoods | err, wait, sorry | 10:28 |
| wwoods | bug 480667 | 10:28 |
| buggbot | Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=480667 medium, low, ---, pjones@redhat.com, NEW, nash unable to find dm devs by uuid or label causing boot to fail | 10:28 |
| wwoods | that one shows up as a system failing to boot at first boot | 10:28 |
| wwoods | the workaround for that is to add boot_delay=5, or change root=UUID... to root=/dev/VolGroup00/LogVol00 (or similar) | 10:29 |
| pjones | in theory, hansg might have a fix for that. | 10:29 |
| wwoods | right - there should be a fix Real Soon Now, but it'll probably come up when people start playing with F11a | 10:29 |
| wwoods | hopefully it'll be in the release notes, otherwise.. we'll find other ways, but spread the word | 10:29 |
| wwoods | anything else on F11Alpha specifically? | 10:29 |
| viking_ice | can the boot_delay= be used as a workaround for usb external disks | 10:30 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: I'm not sure what problem you're referring to | 10:30 |
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| wwoods | got a bug id? | 10:30 |
| * viking_ice diggs it up | 10:30 | |
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| viking_ice | Bug 478824 | 10:31 |
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| buggbot | Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=478824 medium, low, ---, kernel-maint@redhat.com, NEW, Installing to an external usb connected HD fails... | 10:31 |
| viking_ice | the installation works fine | 10:32 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: it sounds like it might be a similar bug | 10:32 |
| wwoods | try boot_delay=5 and see if it helps | 10:32 |
| viking_ice | yup | 10:32 |
| wwoods | pjones: got an opinion on that one? | 10:33 |
| viking_ice | more curios why both you and clumens claimed it work for you ? | 10:34 |
| wwoods | as you can see from the test results page - we haven't tested it in F11a | 10:34 |
| wwoods | but we tested in F9 and F10 and it worked then | 10:34 |
| viking_ice | ok | 10:34 |
| pjones | wwoods: I love how he contradicts himself as to where the failure is... | 10:34 |
| wwoods | if we had notified you about the F11a RC builds, would you have been able to test it? | 10:34 |
| wwoods | pjones: be fair, it's a subtle and confusing problem | 10:35 |
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| viking_ice | wwoods: me? | 10:36 |
| viking_ice | as in test it | 10:36 |
| viking_ice | sure I have a spare disk and could free an ide one as well | 10:36 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: sure - we had candidate images but we were testing everything else as hard as we could and none of us are easily equipped to test external USB at the moment | 10:36 |
| pjones | wwoods: so that screenshot definitely looks like we're just not waiting long enough in that case for the disk to show up. | 10:37 |
| wwoods | so it might just be another manifestation of 480667 | 10:37 |
| viking_ice | I downloaded image a week or go from alt to test but i'm pretty sure the dvd drive in my laptop is failing | 10:37 |
| pjones | could be. | 10:37 |
| wwoods | okay, we'll retest and see what helps | 10:37 |
| wwoods | thanks for the info! | 10:37 |
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| wwoods | viking_ice: there are new images on alt - live images too. I'll try to scrounge up a USB disk to test again | 10:38 |
| wwoods | but yeah, that section of the test results page is blank | 10:38 |
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| wwoods | so we need help testing, wherever we can find it. | 10:38 |
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| viking_ice | I have access to atleast 5 various types of laptop to test and play with | 10:39 |
| wwoods | anyway, let's move on to the organizational-type stuff | 10:39 |
| wwoods | we'll be talking about F11a and rawhide a lot, esp. with test days and such coming up | 10:39 |
| * leitz wants viking_ice's lab too... | 10:39 | |
| viking_ice | in the evening.. | 10:39 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | Wiki use | 10:39 | |
| wwoods | the next topic was wiki use | 10:39 |
| viking_ice | Thank good for people that buy vista and think their old laptop is crap ( which I gladly collect ) | 10:39 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: heh! nice | 10:40 |
| wwoods | so we've got our own namespace on the wiki - "QA:" | 10:40 |
| wwoods | this helps keep qa-specific stuff (test plans, test results pages, test cases, per-package info, other in-depth documentation) | 10:41 |
| wwoods | separate from the end-user oriented stuff | 10:41 |
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| wwoods | *but* some of the pages we write - like the Test Days stuff - should probably still be in the main namespace, since we *want* normal users to be able to search and stumble upon it | 10:41 |
| leitz | Do we really want that? Or have news items posted in users areas? | 10:42 |
| wwoods | well, both, honestly | 10:42 |
| viking_ice | nah not really we just create a testday page with links to already existing test day's and the new one | 10:42 |
| leitz | We already hit a snag on centralization. | 10:42 |
| wwoods | test days should get mailed to the lists, we should notify the FWN guys, it should be on the wiki, etc. | 10:43 |
| viking_ice | so we can just as well have the $date in the QA: name space | 10:43 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: right, we've got the category page for that | 10:43 |
| leitz | I'd suggest one place to rule them all , and what Chris Brogan calls "outposts" | 10:43 |
| wwoods | so should https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Test_Days/2009-02-05 get moved to QA:Test_day_20090205? | 10:43 |
| wwoods | we obviously want all test days to be in the Test Days category | 10:44 |
| viking_ice | I would like to have that page made of Test Case and Passes | 10:44 |
| wwoods | oh I guess we'd want to name them by the theme, really? | 10:44 |
| leitz | Places where we attract interest, for those interested. | 10:44 |
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| wwoods | or by the date - either way, the important bit needs to be at the beginning | 10:44 |
| wwoods | to make the category page useful | 10:44 |
| viking_ice | right.. | 10:44 |
| * viking_ice far from being wiki expert and would like to avoid wiki masters wrath | 10:45 | |
| wwoods | e.g. QA:2009-02-05_Test_day or QA:ext4_test_day | 10:45 |
| leitz | Define important? | 10:45 |
| * viking_ice ducks | 10:45 | |
| leitz | We need to sort, plus we need to minimize user time spent on non-interesting topics. | 10:45 |
| jlaska | so ... hrmm, wiki ... what's the goal with the renaming? | 10:45 |
| jlaska | is it to improve searching in the QA namespace? | 10:46 |
| leitz | Or marketing? | 10:46 |
| wwoods | jlaska: yeah, and to keep stuff that isn't end-user-focused from cluttering the main namespace | 10:46 |
| leitz | Or wwoods "both"? | 10:46 |
| viking_ice | clean up and serach among other things | 10:46 |
| jlaska | wwoods: so I can just prefix all the test day content with QA: instead of QA/ | 10:46 |
| viking_ice | s/serach/search | 10:46 |
| wwoods | e.g. normal users searching for 'anaconda' shouldn't have to weed through our 47 anaconda test cases | 10:46 |
| wwoods | to find the page with anaconda options on it | 10:46 |
| jlaska | yeah i like the QA: namespace, that's a good idea | 10:47 |
| wwoods | BUT, since test day stuff *is* arguably end-user focused | 10:47 |
| wwoods | I can see that one either way | 10:47 |
| jlaska | is there a mandate from the wiki/infrastructure folks? | 10:48 |
| leitz | I'd recommend centralization with QA team personal marketing to users. | 10:48 |
| wwoods | jlaska: there are some guidelines - stop using slashes, for one thing | 10:48 |
| wwoods | every time you're thinking of doing QA/[something]/[morestuff] | 10:49 |
| jlaska | but that was mainly a result of everything existing in the primary namespace? | 10:49 |
| wwoods | maybe it should be more like: QA:Ext4_root_test_case | 10:49 |
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| leitz | wwoods, I like it. | 10:49 |
| * viking_ice yes wiki masters dont / still got a mark after the evil whip | 10:50 | |
| wwoods | just general cleanup, honestly. it's a good idea if you ask me. "Ext4 root test case" is easier to remember than "QA/TestCases/Ext4Root" | 10:50 |
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| jlaska | for some maybe | 10:50 |
| jlaska | but this is a naming debate ... there's no right answer on that is there? | 10:50 |
| wwoods | actually we could follow the wikipedia convention and do e.g. Ext4 root (test case) | 10:50 |
| wwoods | that's why we're setting guidelines | 10:50 |
| wwoods | so we can pick something we like and stick with it | 10:50 |
| adamw_stupidnick | slashes are bad for a flat wiki because they make people think they're directories when they aren't... | 10:51 |
| -!- adamw_stupidnick is now known as adamw | 10:51 | |
| jlaska | right ... and we've got them from our previous moin instance | 10:51 |
| adamw | grr, brb | 10:52 |
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| jlaska | so we should move test cases and plans into the QA: namespace, that sounds like a clear goal right? | 10:52 |
| wwoods | right. we're only using 'em because moin made us do it | 10:52 |
| wwoods | yes, definitely | 10:52 |
| jlaska | test days ... wwoods you noted they could go either way | 10:52 |
| wwoods | yep | 10:52 |
| leitz | If QA were to publish a book, would the wiki be it or just the brain-storm session? That is, how "final draft" should it be and what will we present to the outside world when they ask about us? | 10:52 |
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| jlaska | wwoods: is it worth renaming all existing content to fit into the model ... or just all content going fwd? | 10:53 |
| viking_ice | move all I say | 10:53 |
| wwoods | general QA info should go in the main namespace - the main QA page for instance | 10:53 |
| leitz | How much is all? | 10:53 |
| wwoods | the wiki gurus want us to move it | 10:53 |
| viking_ice | which reminds me should I move the QA page from draft to front? | 10:53 |
| jlaska | leitz: dunno ... maybe around 60-80 pages | 10:53 |
| wwoods | the old page name will be a redirect to the new one, so QA/blah/foo will still get you the right page | 10:53 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: please do | 10:54 |
| leitz | Would you want to toss the "Quality Engineering (QE)" question into the morass? | 10:54 |
| jlaska | moin had a nice feature where you could provide an html <form> with a textbox for the test case name, and button to create the page | 10:54 |
| jlaska | which made it easy to ensure pages landed in the right namespace etc... | 10:54 |
| jlaska | is there something similar we can do in mediawiki ... while we are using it for test case/plan mgmt | 10:55 |
| wwoods | jlaska: not that I know of. | 10:55 |
| wwoods | IIRC there's an API call that lets you create a new page with prefilled content | 10:56 |
| wwoods | but I dunno if there's a wiki macro for that or some other magic | 10:56 |
| wwoods | you'd have to ask the wiki gurus | 10:56 |
| jlaska | yeah ... it's tough to have the guidelines, but we don't have a way to make it "just work" as people create new content | 10:56 |
| jlaska | but that's perhaps more a "nice to have" | 10:56 |
| viking_ice | Should I put QA/QC to QA:SQC ? | 10:57 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: I'd say that general info like that - what QA is, what stuff it does, etc | 10:57 |
| wwoods | should stay in the main namespace | 10:57 |
| wwoods | opinions on naming for test plans / test cases? | 10:58 |
| viking_ice | so when you say main namespace you mean / or : ( just to get it right ) | 10:58 |
| wwoods | main - no : | 10:59 |
| wwoods | to make the wiki gurus happy you should give the pages "natural language" names | 10:59 |
| jlaska | wwoods: my $0.02 is that as long as it's in the namespace : ... we can call it whatever? | 10:59 |
| wwoods | like "Software Quality Control" or "SQC" | 10:59 |
| wwoods | avoid slashes. | 10:59 |
| * viking_ice still confused.. | 10:59 | |
| leitz | Avoid acronym-only, unless it's real long. | 10:59 |
| viking_ice | No slashes | 11:00 |
| viking_ice | and it should be then the final QA:Software_Quality_Control <-- | 11:00 |
| wwoods | probably just Software_Quality_Control | 11:00 |
| wwoods | since it's general info that non-QA-team people would find useful | 11:01 |
| wwoods | stuff that's only useful/needed by QA team people should go under QA: | 11:01 |
| viking_ice | Today's QA == SQC | 11:01 |
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| viking_ice | So all info for testers/triagers are in the SQC | 11:02 |
| wwoods | as for test plans and test cases in QA: - I guess all test plans should be in the "Test Plans" category, and similarly "Test Cases" | 11:02 |
| wwoods | but I think that's pretty obvious | 11:03 |
| wwoods | so really we need some templates/examples for test cases and plans | 11:03 |
| wwoods | and to talk to wiki guys about ways to prefill a new page with a template | 11:03 |
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| jlaska | wwoods: yeah, I began migrating all the test cases into additional [sub]categories last week ... https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Test_Cases | 11:04 |
| jlaska | I've got a mediawiki template for a test case (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Template:QA/Test_Case) | 11:04 |
| viking_ice | I want test cases a have direction for beginners testers or some how have label of experience skill level if that test case is presuming some knowledge before proceeding | 11:04 |
| jlaska | we can provide some basic blue prints, but there's nothing stopping from having images, or additional sections etc... | 11:05 |
| wwoods | yeah, a skill level rating isn't a bad idea. categories for beginner, intermediate, expert.. | 11:05 |
| leitz | viking_ice, one of my goals is to expose the skills and talents needed for tasks, and to make sure the tools required are documentd. | 11:06 |
| viking_ice | wwoods: goes with the training class | 11:06 |
| viking_ice | that will be created | 11:06 |
| viking_ice | sometime in future | 11:06 |
| viking_ice | Train testers | 11:06 |
| leitz | Beginner is a relative term. if you have to know how to use bugzilla, for example, that gives a concrete measure of what is required. | 11:07 |
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| * leitz is still typing slow... | 11:07 | |
| viking_ice | leitz: Beginner == livecd testing | 11:07 |
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| wwoods | yeah, we'll want to have some rough outlines of what we mean by those things | 11:07 |
| viking_ice | which can be any joe of the net. | 11:07 |
| wwoods | this actually kinda segues nicely into the final topic - QA team guidelines | 11:08 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | team guidelines | 11:08 | |
| viking_ice | and it's safe for him to do testing without destroying his data | 11:08 |
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| * leitz can destroy data any time, day or night... | 11:08 | |
| viking_ice | erase != destroy | 11:08 |
| viking_ice | hehe | 11:08 |
| * wwoods is an expert data destroyer | 11:09 | |
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| leitz | First Team Guidline; adamw buys bbq tomorrow. | 11:10 |
| wwoods | hooray! | 11:10 |
| adamw | i would like to register my opposition to this in the strongest terms available to a canadian! | 11:10 |
| leitz | eh? | 11:11 |
| wwoods | so, you're politely declining | 11:11 |
| leitz | They probably have beer... | 11:11 |
| pingou | beerS ? | 11:11 |
| wwoods | suddenly the entire channel wakes up | 11:11 |
| daumas | wat | 11:11 |
| adamw | yeah - new euphemism: Canadian barbeque | 11:11 |
| adamw | meaning, beer drinking | 11:11 |
| adamw | :) | 11:11 |
| leitz | Yeah, but the more meat in your gullet the better you can handle the fermentation. | 11:12 |
| leitz | Sounds like adamw's in. :) | 11:12 |
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| adamw | should probably be noted at this point that i'm vegetarian :) | 11:12 |
| leitz | Beef is only refromed grass. | 11:13 |
| wwoods | well, so am I, but I've got good news - we've declared bbq to be a type of fruit for the next 24 hours | 11:13 |
| adamw | haha | 11:13 |
| viking_ice | is the Canadian beer good or is it equally crappy to the American one | 11:13 |
| adamw | we have that power?! | 11:13 |
| * wwoods is not a very good vegetarian | 11:13 | |
| adamw | viking_ice: canadian mass-market beer like Molson Canadian is almost as bad as U.S. mass-market beer | 11:13 |
| viking_ice | adamw: you dont eat meat your doomed | 11:14 |
| adamw | but like in the U.S. there's small local producers who make really good stuff | 11:14 |
| viking_ice | haha | 11:14 |
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| viking_ice | what you define as a good beer the local British ones are tasty and good | 11:14 |
| adamw | i'm originally from england. so I am qualified to have an opinion :P | 11:15 |
| * pingou is offering some good belgium beers ;) | 11:15 | |
| wwoods | obviously, QA team membership involves an appreciation of good beer and/or liquor | 11:15 |
| wwoods | if at all possible, you should send one fine bottle to a QA team sponsor | 11:15 |
| viking_ice | culture exchange.. | 11:15 |
| * leitz can only stomache actual german beer. | 11:15 | |
| wwoods | because as adamw pointed out: nobody should have to deal with bugzilla sober | 11:15 |
| leitz | The Blokes don't have beer... | 11:15 |
| adamw | i DID bring a bottle of 2001 ontario wine. but, sadly, vincent and I drank it all already. :P | 11:15 |
| leitz | warm urine, yes..beer...not really. | 11:16 |
| adamw | wwoods: oh yeah. do the bugzilla folks have beers in their area's company fridge? | 11:16 |
| pingou | idea: 1 free beer per 5 solved bugs ? | 11:16 |
| wwoods | ha | 11:16 |
| adamw | it would have to be the other way around | 11:16 |
| adamw | you'd have to pay the beer up front | 11:16 |
| viking_ice | when feeding bugzilla with report coins beer should pop out | 11:17 |
| wwoods | beer bug bounties! | 11:17 |
| wwoods | submit a fix for this bug and you get the following bottles: | 11:17 |
| daumas | sounds great. file a bug on it. | 11:17 |
| * leitz can see a lot more bugs maing it into the system... | 11:17 | |
| viking_ice | if written in x language the more low level language the more expensive beer | 11:18 |
| leitz | yeah, java gives you british beer. | 11:18 |
| daumas | what would asm get you? | 11:18 |
| viking_ice | java gives you something like Budweiser hahah | 11:18 |
| wwoods | trappist ale, hand-delivered by the monks | 11:18 |
| leitz | same same | 11:19 |
| pingou | the amount of alcool on the beer is according to the rank of the bug (low, medium...) | 11:19 |
| wwoods | heh ANYWAY | 11:19 |
| pingou | Grimbergen, leffe... | 11:19 |
| leitz | what? | 11:19 |
| viking_ice | nah to much alcahol in beer ruins it | 11:19 |
| adamw | python gets you coors light | 11:19 |
| pingou | viking_ice, tried a casteel ? | 11:19 |
| wwoods | so we keep talking about "qa team members" and voting on proposals and things, but we don't have any actual guidelines for team membership or who can vote | 11:20 |
| leitz | Team Guidelines, Take 2. | 11:20 |
| wwoods | so here's my super-quick proposal: | 11:20 |
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| wwoods | 1) like all the other groups in Fedora, there's members and sponsors (and administrators) | 11:20 |
| wwoods | 2) if something needs a vote from the QA team, sponsors + admins each get 1 vote | 11:21 |
| leitz | 2.a) Will need guideline on what needs that sort of vote, and what is hashed out in the community. | 11:21 |
| wwoods | 3) you get to be a sponsor by doing "a bunch of good QA work" - at least a little each of: writing wiki pages (test plans, test cases, test day planning), release testing, bodhi karma-ing, etc | 11:22 |
| viking_ice | first let's establish proper QC lead | 11:22 |
| viking_ice | before deciding on how they vote | 11:22 |
| wwoods | yeah, I think most decisions can be made by consensus of the group, but stuff that becomes hard to decide might be put to a vote | 11:22 |
| viking_ice | example | 11:23 |
| * f13 peeks in | 11:23 | |
| wwoods | 3) (continued) once you've done a bunch of good stuff you can apply to the sponsors, and they'll vote on you. This is approximately how FESCo decides on new packaging sponsors. | 11:23 |
| viking_ice | So If I would suggest ssh to be disable by default on the DVD that would be voted on QA and that result would enforced upstream | 11:24 |
| wwoods | except.. they have a 9-member board | 11:24 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: no, that's not a QA decision | 11:24 |
| viking_ice | Really | 11:24 |
| wwoods | that's FESCo | 11:24 |
| wwoods | they're the engineering steering committee, they make those sorts of technical decisions | 11:24 |
| leitz | 3) Suggestion: Sponsors tag members that are ready to be elevated. Eliminates voicing success except by success. | 11:25 |
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| viking_ice | that actually would be a QA vote as in ( SQA not SQC ) | 11:25 |
| wwoods | our charter is soley testing and quality assurance. we don't determine the contents of the product, except by advising on its testability | 11:25 |
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| viking_ice | again disagreeing here | 11:25 |
| poelcat | link to the charter? | 11:26 |
| viking_ice | the current qa should be considered SQC | 11:26 |
| wwoods | poelcat: unofficial | 11:26 |
| leitz | And escalation process, as we can't suborn FESCo without at least getting them involved. | 11:26 |
| viking_ice | QA would have member from fesco | 11:26 |
| wwoods | that's the sumamtion of discussions with max/paul, FESCo, etc | 11:26 |
| wwoods | err summation | 11:27 |
| wwoods | perhaps that needs to be made official | 11:27 |
| leitz | yup. | 11:27 |
| wwoods | the current makeup of the group is: 5-member board, no official team membership | 11:27 |
| * leitz eyes our FESCo rep... | 11:27 | |
| wwoods | myself (lead), jlaska, f13, poelstra, jds2001. this was decided.. basically by fiat. | 11:27 |
| viking_ice | ah so this is now currently supposed to be the board | 11:28 |
| * poelcat doesn't consider myself a board member | 11:28 | |
| jwb | disable ssh by default on what DVD? | 11:28 |
| viking_ice | GA | 11:28 |
| f13 | I'm here because my job depends on things working, and the best way that I can ensure that is by being a part of making them work. | 11:28 |
| viking_ice | it's not like that in the live spin | 11:28 |
| jwb | it's not like what? | 11:29 |
| jwb | the live spins are CDs | 11:29 |
| jwb | and why would we disable ssh by default? | 11:29 |
| viking_ice | yup and with default install of an live cd ssh is not enabled by default | 11:29 |
| viking_ice | security risk | 11:29 |
| viking_ice | or atleast deny root access | 11:29 |
| f13 | the only reason its disabled on Live is because there are no passwords for the users | 11:29 |
| wwoods | you guys, that is a tangent | 11:29 |
| wwoods | and it is definitely a FESCo matter | 11:29 |
| jwb | yeah, sorry | 11:29 |
| f13 | regular installs require you to set a password. | 11:30 |
| leitz | FESCo wiki page. | 11:30 |
| leitz | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FESCo | 11:30 |
| * bpepple pokes his head in. | 11:30 | |
| f13 | ... but yes, FESCo && OpenSSH maintainer. | 11:30 |
| viking_ice | and a regular novice user does not know that his ssh is enabled by default | 11:30 |
| viking_ice | while the more experienced one has the knowledge to enable it | 11:30 |
| f13 | viking_ice: bring it up elsewhere. Not a QA matter | 11:30 |
| f13 | testing that the default setting is accurate, that's a QA matter | 11:31 |
| viking_ice | depends of the definition of QA | 11:31 |
| leitz | Let's talk about QA at FESCo Friday, okay? | 11:31 |
| leitz | Assuming FESCo page is correct. | 11:31 |
| f13 | QA is there to test the product definitions as provided by development and management. | 11:32 |
| wwoods | I'm telling you, the QA team's purpose is to ensure the quality of the distribution (and the tools used to make it) by testing and other means | 11:32 |
| f13 | if you want to change how the product is defined, you operate in those circles, not QA | 11:32 |
| viking_ice | qa in it's current form == SQC not SQA | 11:32 |
| bpepple | leitz: shoot an e-mail to jds2001 or open up an item on FESCo's trac to add it to Friday's agenda. | 11:32 |
| wwoods | we don't define the product, except in that we advise the other teams on what is reasonable, testable, etc. | 11:33 |
| leitz | Team Guidelines, 4) Potential team members get mentored. | 11:33 |
| viking_ice | and the QC leads to be formed by the community and for the community not some appointed persons | 11:33 |
| leitz | bpepple, will do. | 11:33 |
| viking_ice | f13: http://sqa.net | 11:34 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: right - I want community members as "qc leads" (team sponsors) | 11:34 |
| wwoods | and, yes, new team members should be mentored, either by other members or the sponsors | 11:34 |
| * f13 has worked in multiple "QA" departments, noneofwhich determined how the product was designed. | 11:34 | |
| leitz | viking_ice, make sure we have the questions ready to go fro Friday. | 11:34 |
| leitz | Sponsor, not necessarily. The team is pretty good. | 11:35 |
| leitz | Sponsors are just senior team members, right? | 11:35 |
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| wwoods | essentially, yes - they're the team members that we trust enough to be able to bless new team members | 11:35 |
| viking_ice | QC can have differrent teams like testers and triagers and the testers team can for example have sub teams as well automation gui network etc | 11:36 |
| wwoods | and to vote on things requiring it | 11:36 |
| leitz | So team members get mentors, maybe a sponsor just makes sure that happens in a reasonable time? | 11:36 |
| leitz | Or a leader in the team, whether sponsor or not... | 11:37 |
| wwoods | so. do we need a board of some static size to oversee sponsors, or are the sponsors themselves sufficient to run QA and make decisions? | 11:37 |
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| viking_ice | The fedora QA board needs to be made up of individuals from each SIG | 11:37 |
| f13 | only if they are interested | 11:38 |
| leitz | Again, while avoiding the issue of what QA does, the scope of Sponsor voting vice community upheaval needs to be clearly defined. | 11:38 |
| wwoods | well, I agree that we want a QA rep for each SIG | 11:38 |
| leitz | Let's gain wise counsel and avoid death by committee... | 11:38 |
| wwoods | yeah I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible, keeping requirements to a minimum | 11:39 |
| f13 | yeah. | 11:39 |
| wwoods | but we need to define: a) what it takes to become a QA team member, | 11:39 |
| viking_ice | I say first we need to come up with an QC offical board lead made from the community for the community | 11:39 |
| wwoods | b) what it takes to be a sponsor, and | 11:39 |
| f13 | the more we talk about process and governance and voting and proper representation, the more I want to just stop contributing to QA | 11:39 |
| jlaska | bingo! | 11:39 |
| wwoods | c) what is expected of those roles + what is provided to those people | 11:39 |
| viking_ice | becoming a QC members should just be enough to assign to either tester or triage group | 11:40 |
| viking_ice | from my perspective | 11:40 |
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| wwoods | so wait, there's a differnet FAS group that gives you bug triager permissions in bugzilla, right? | 11:41 |
| wwoods | that's all handled by bugzappers? | 11:41 |
| viking_ice | and how much you want to participate beyond testing/triage should is just up to that persons time and will | 11:41 |
| leitz | f13, jlaska, I agree to a great extent. However, there's a great way to work this that I'm not sure we've yet found. | 11:41 |
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| daumas | end-user question: if i only have enough time to spend a few hours a week downloading and testing ~10 packages from updates-testing and putting karma on them, do i need to worry about any of this or should I just continue what I'm doing? | 11:41 |
| wwoods | jds2001: is that true? | 11:41 |
| f13 | daumas: you can just continue what you're doing | 11:42 |
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| wwoods | daumas: you don't *need* to worry about it | 11:42 |
| f13 | daumas: and it will continue to be very valuable, and we'll continue to tahnk you | 11:42 |
| daumas | f13, wwoods: ok, thanks | 11:42 |
| wwoods | but one of the things I'm proposing that QA team members get is: recognition in bodhi - a little "QA" badge next to your username | 11:42 |
| * viking_ice notes it's more than a month since I filed a ticket first in infra then in bodhi about remind testers to use bodhi and vote | 11:43 | |
| viking_ice | in updates-testing report | 11:43 |
| leitz | daumas--though if you can send us/me notes on the process and docs that bug you, I'd appreciate it. | 11:43 |
| wwoods | so that rel-eng / maintainers know that this feedback comes from a recognized QA guy, who definitely knows how to test stuff and knows what they're talking about and should be taken seriously | 11:43 |
| wwoods | would that be useful? | 11:43 |
| viking_ice | wwoods: wont work unless maintainers actually push stuff to updates-testing | 11:43 |
| wwoods | or should we not even bother? so far we get plenty of people using bodhi and testing stuff without needing any of this bureaucracy | 11:44 |
| f13 | viking_ice: tickets are neat, but when there is a single bodhi developer, he has to set his priorities. Filing tickets doesn't automatically mean code will be generated. | 11:44 |
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| leitz | wwoods, I'd like to bring in some actual industry standard/ certification stuff | 11:44 |
| leitz | So that our QA follows some path that's proven and valid outside Fedora. | 11:45 |
| wwoods | leitz: that's a rather large can o' worms - can you send a proposal to fedora-test-list for review? | 11:45 |
| viking_ice | back to SQA | 11:45 |
| jds2001 | wwoods: is what true? | 11:45 |
| leitz | wwoods, yup. It will be on my page soon. | 11:46 |
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| jds2001 | wwoods: yes, fedorabugs gives you editbugs and a few other things in bugzilla. | 11:46 |
| wwoods | jds2001: bugzilla perms are controlled by a FAS group, membership in that group is overseen by bugzappers | 11:46 |
| jds2001 | fsvo overseen :) | 11:46 |
| wwoods | and therefore the QA team doesn't need to worry about oversight/sponsorship/etc. for bug triagers | 11:46 |
| viking_ice | wwoods: we should not need any special badges over any other QC team member (tester) | 11:47 |
| jds2001 | right. | 11:47 |
| wwoods | jds2001: ok! that simplifies things then. thanks. | 11:47 |
| jds2001 | but most often, a QA dude is gonna need the same permissions. | 11:47 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: right, but should QA team members (testers) get recognition above non-qa-team-members? | 11:47 |
| leitz | wwoods, would that tie into the voting/karma discussion of some time back? | 11:48 |
| wwoods | jds2001: true, I suppose, but now we have complicated overlap where we need to figure out who deserves the 'fedorabugs' permissions | 11:48 |
| wwoods | leitz: voting/karma on what? | 11:49 |
| leitz | That is, should a QA established (somehow) tester be more able to affect application promotion? | 11:49 |
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| jds2001 | so the filter i use is cla_done and thats it. | 11:49 |
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| wwoods | we have a lot of voting/karma discussions.. | 11:49 |
| viking_ice | from my perspective QC member ( tester ) is QC member all on equal ground ( except for the board of the QC ) | 11:49 |
| jds2001 | I thought we decided that at fudcon...like the first one i was at in RDU. | 11:49 |
| leitz | wwoods, okay, sorry. I'll dig up the one I'm thinking about and share it later. | 11:49 |
| wwoods | jds2001: pretty much, yeah, since anyone who misbehaves can just be dropped | 11:49 |
| wwoods | so yeah, qa membership can imply fedorabugs | 11:50 |
| viking_ice | as I see it with the fedora-qa trac instance I want everybody to be able to assign a case if he has the time skills and the means to do so | 11:50 |
| wwoods | so that's another thing you get | 11:50 |
| jds2001 | that takes a minor fas change. | 11:50 |
| jds2001 | i can submit a patch for that. | 11:50 |
| viking_ice | testers privileges and triage privileges should be the same because we all possess the skills ( or should actually ) to do each others work | 11:51 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: right, but is there a useful distinction between 'qa team member' and 'non-member' | 11:51 |
| wwoods | and what do you have to do to prove that you can be trusted as part of the qa team? | 11:52 |
| leitz | Beer. | 11:52 |
| viking_ice | wwoods: what trust are you looking for | 11:52 |
| adamw | wwoods: i wouldn't set the bar too high on that, as a qa person cannot fundamentally break anything important on his own | 11:52 |
| adamw | so there's no reason to set a very high entry barrier | 11:53 |
| viking_ice | what expectation do you have to a QA member | 11:53 |
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| jds2001 | adamw: agreed. | 11:53 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: that's what I'm asking you | 11:54 |
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| viking_ice | I want to get as many people involved if the QC members some mistake than it's our own fault not to provide proper documentation or guideline | 11:54 |
| wwoods | we have some *proposed* ideas for perks for QA team members - access to release-candidate bits, triager permissions in bugzilla, badge on bodhi comments, etc. | 11:55 |
| wwoods | and, of course, beer | 11:55 |
| * jds2001 <3 beer :) | 11:55 | |
| wwoods | in exchange, we hope for assistance testing those bits, triaging those bugs, and testing those updates in bodhi | 11:55 |
| viking_ice | first this bodhi badge idea does not work | 11:56 |
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| adamw | wwoods: from the bugzilla perspective, what I did for MDV bug triaging squad was a 'license test' - I picked out ten un-triaged bugs and asked them to give a report (on the mailing list) on what triage actions they'd take for each... | 11:56 |
| jds2001 | viking_ice: why not? | 11:56 |
| wwoods | so the question is: is it worth providing benefits to a limited group, just to entice people to participate in the group more? | 11:56 |
| adamw | i'd pick the bugs to give a range of common triage gotchas, so they'd probably get a few wrong and others could explain | 11:56 |
| jds2001 | viking_ice: no code? That cna be fixed, learn python :D | 11:56 |
| wwoods | or should we just drop the entire idea? | 11:56 |
| viking_ice | It's up to the reporter to state if the bug he filed has been fixed or not and we can not have more value if than any other tester for that matter if our setup works but not his | 11:56 |
| daumas | minimum things i'd appreciate 1) fedora QA expectations 2) guidelines for bodhi: karma and comments 3) PackageKit integration with rollback support, or yum. i don't believe adding a second FESco to fedora will help. | 11:57 |
| viking_ice | so it gets a pass just because I have a badge.. | 11:57 |
| viking_ice | bullshit | 11:57 |
| wwoods | daumas: I'm inclined to agree | 11:57 |
| wwoods | and viking_ice has a good point as well | 11:57 |
| wwoods | so if there's no need for team membership, there's no need for sponsors per se | 11:58 |
| adamw | wwoods: i'm not sure it's right to look at it from a 'doggy treats' perspective | 11:58 |
| wwoods | mentoring and documentation is still valuable, obviously | 11:58 |
| jds2001 | the first one is unwieldy as is, we get flamed for making "arbitrary" decisions :) | 11:58 |
| wwoods | (and better tools to help testers do their testing) | 11:58 |
| viking_ice | all testers need to have access to the same bits and that is the same spins and preferably testers mirror | 11:58 |
| adamw | wwoods: i'd like to look at it like this: are there any types of access to any system that we can't reasonably just grant to anyone with an account. if so, what are the minimum sensible barriers to gain access to those rights. if not, grant them to all. | 11:58 |
| leitz | daumas--I'm working on your 1) and 2). | 11:58 |
| viking_ice | we can not effectively test on out of sync mirror or on outdated spins | 11:59 |
| wwoods | the only one that's a legitimate problem is access to the RC bits | 11:59 |
| adamw | i don't think anyone's gonna say "i want to become a qa team member in order to get access to pre-release bits!" it should be more a case of 'what should you need to be able to do before you get access to RC bits' | 11:59 |
| leitz | RC bits == bandwidth. | 11:59 |
| viking_ice | but we should restrict access to QC membership to those bits | 11:59 |
| adamw | the RC bits aren't a motivator to get people involved, they're just...something you need access to to do the job | 11:59 |
| EvilBob | if they want pre-release bits they just have to become a mirror | 12:00 |
| f13 | EvilBob: whic is a pretty significant expense. | 12:00 |
| daumas | or release a torrent.. | 12:00 |
| f13 | EvilBob: 1TB of online disk space and a ton of bandwidth. | 12:00 |
| wwoods | we have limited bandwidth to the staging area so we can't just open it up to the world (we tried, it got swarmed with non-testers, none of the testers could get bits quick enough) | 12:00 |
| jds2001 | well we dont stage a lot of our RC's to mirrors. | 12:00 |
| EvilBob | f13: not for a private mirror | 12:00 |
| f13 | and what jds2001 says | 12:00 |
| f13 | EvilBob: mirrors can't get to the RC bits until the bits move out of RC stage and into GOLD stage | 12:01 |
| adamw | wwoods: right. so then we simply need to define some kind of minimum level of competence or commitment or however we want to look at it in order to get access to those. | 12:01 |
| adamw | and a system for managing that that is consistent and understandable and doesn't depend on a single person, but has the minimum possible level of annoying bureaucracy to it | 12:01 |
| EvilBob | f13: ok I see the difference, thanks | 12:01 |
| viking_ice | that minimal level from a QC perspective would be actively report in testing or participate in a triage . | 12:02 |
| viking_ice | the live cd's need to be available to all | 12:02 |
| wwoods | adamw: right - so, we've got a 'qa' group in the Fedora Account System, and (like all FAS groups) it defines administrators, sponsors, and users | 12:03 |
| wwoods | sponsors can add people to the group, admins can make other people sponsors | 12:03 |
| adamw | viking_ice: does it matter if the person actually has a clue (i.e. files *useful* reports and triages *properly*) or would you rather just take anyone with the enthusiasm and give them a clue as we go along? :) | 12:03 |
| viking_ice | I would accept anyone at this stage because we need all the help we can get in both teams and train/guide them along | 12:03 |
| wwoods | so here's a proposal: restrict access to the staging area to rel-eng/qa. if you want to be in the qa group, just ask a sponsor. | 12:04 |
| viking_ice | teams being triage and testing | 12:04 |
| wwoods | every time there's release candidate bits, we'll mail the qa group | 12:04 |
| leitz | How much time is spent managing and leading the new folks? | 12:04 |
| adamw | i'd say that's reasonable but if you take that route it's important to be careful that there are people with the commitment and knowledge to train the newbies | 12:04 |
| wwoods | if, say, three months go by and you don't post any test results | 12:04 |
| viking_ice | ask the appointed leader none | 12:04 |
| wwoods | you get dropped from the group | 12:04 |
| leitz | Someone loses triage time helping someone else learn to triage. | 12:04 |
| wwoods | also, I think we may be colliding with FESCo's meeting time | 12:05 |
| jeremy | wwoods: fesco meets on fridays now | 12:05 |
| wwoods | oh | 12:05 |
| leitz | Isn't theirs Friday? | 12:05 |
| wwoods | they should change http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel then | 12:05 |
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| f13 | wwoods: I agree to that proposal. | 12:06 |
| adamw | wwoods: that all sounds good to me | 12:07 |
| viking_ice | so are we back to 15:00 because the need of one out weighs the need of many or? | 12:07 |
| leitz | We agree that we need some guidelines. | 12:07 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: because that's what was on the schedule | 12:07 |
| adamw | wwoods: and we don't really need a complex system for who's a sponsor and who's an admin at the size we're at now, right? does anyone here have a problem with just handling that in a kinda informal way? | 12:07 |
| jlaska | none here | 12:07 |
| wwoods | is there a better time? I know we have more people on the west coast now, so later might be better | 12:07 |
| poelcat | adamw: no | 12:07 |
| leitz | adamw--some informality kills. | 12:07 |
| * poelcat isn't clear what current problem is in need of solving | 12:08 | |
| leitz | I've gotten confused and frustrated...well, even more confused than normal. | 12:08 |
| viking_ice | we should have them as open as possible and adjust them if the need arises | 12:08 |
| viking_ice | is my perspective on the requirements to participate in QC | 12:08 |
| wwoods | the most immediate problem is: controlling access to the RC staging area (and notification of new RC bits) | 12:08 |
| wwoods | because that was a problem with f11a | 12:08 |
| poelcat | i thought we've always said people can just build them themselves locally and that it doesn't matter? | 12:09 |
| viking_ice | restrict them to QC group no more no less | 12:09 |
| wwoods | poelcat: turns out it does | 12:09 |
| wwoods | f13's home-built images behaved differently from the phx-built images that jlaska and I were using | 12:09 |
| adamw | leitz: i agree, but the danger as i saw the previous discussion is that there would be a big heavy arcane system which would *also* kill... | 12:09 |
| wwoods | rawhide also behaved slightly differently, which is what clumens was testing | 12:09 |
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| f13 | I'm still not sure, but I /could/ have had a different package set due to some rsync failures. | 12:10 |
| f13 | I was trying to sync the freeze content and may have failed. | 12:10 |
| viking_ice | So the restriction are bound to be in the QC group and if you behave badly you get dropped out of the group and hence no longer have access to the broken bits? | 12:11 |
| * poelcat has always thought it was QA101 to test the actual bits you're shipping even if it is "hard" | 12:11 | |
| wwoods | even if that wasn't a problem, we still need to notify people when we have a frozen package list so they can *build* images | 12:11 |
| wwoods | which reduces to the same problem - who do we notify, and how do we make sure they get the right bits? well then we need to ensure they all have access to a guaranteed up-to-date mirror.. | 12:12 |
| f13 | poelcat: yes, but sometimes "hard" becomes "impossible" with our schedules | 12:12 |
| viking_ice | can you restrict access to mirrors ? | 12:12 |
| f13 | mirrors never see these bits | 12:13 |
| f13 | we churn them far too frequently for them to be of any use. | 12:13 |
| viking_ice | true | 12:13 |
| wwoods | QA100 is: some testing on near-final bits is better than no testing on final bits | 12:13 |
| poelcat | f13: then we innovate and come up with something new :) Isn't that our way? | 12:13 |
| f13 | wwoods: ++ | 12:13 |
| f13 | poelcat: the inovate and something new was supposed to be "composing in mock == same results" | 12:13 |
| f13 | much easier with a blocking freeze and everybody is working from the same rawhide | 12:14 |
| adamw | ok, so if it's basically agreed that we restrict rc bits access to qa team members,that's great, and it just becomes about...what does it require to be a qa team member, who controls that process (i.e. who are the sponsors and admins and how is that decided) | 12:14 |
| viking_ice | So are we going to waste testers time on outdated bits? | 12:14 |
| wwoods | i.e. much easier for beta | 12:14 |
| wwoods | viking_ice: no, we're trying to figure out how to give testers access to up-to-date bits | 12:14 |
| f13 | also, /functional/ testing of the software certainly doesn't have to come from the target isos. The apache package on the iso made in phx is the same apache package in the rawhide tree | 12:14 |
| wwoods | without giving everyone in the world the opportunity to swarm that server and keep the testers from getting their work done | 12:14 |
| f13 | the only concern really for testing the exact same bits is the installer testing. | 12:14 |
| * leitz had to work with the auto glass install guy. | 12:15 | |
| viking_ice | wwoods: yes and that access should be restricted to fas account and QC membership | 12:15 |
| leitz | Isn't QA person not really equal to RC bit tester? | 12:15 |
| viking_ice | no more no less | 12:15 |
| jlaska | we've got a few topics going at once ... should we record these as bullets for a future meeting? | 12:15 |
| leitz | For example, I'm not looking to do any RC testing soon so even though I might be helping with QA, do I need RC Bit access? | 12:16 |
| f13 | leitz: just because you have them, doesn't mean you'd use them. | 12:16 |
| wwoods | leitz: AFAICT, no, you don't | 12:16 |
| f13 | leitz: but those that would use them, do need to have them. | 12:16 |
| f13 | jlaska: yeah, I'm getting confused as to what we're currently talking about. | 12:17 |
| wwoods | I think we've gotten it reduced to this: | 12:18 |
| wwoods | 1) to facilitate RC testing, we should have a private mirror (or restrict access to alt) for QA | 12:18 |
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| wwoods | 2) anyone who wants to help with RC testing can have access, but they may be dropped if inactive (esp. if the machine gets overwhelmed by downloaders who don't report any results) | 12:19 |
| wwoods | does that sound about right? | 12:20 |
| viking_ice | yup aggreed +1 | 12:20 |
| leitz | 2) Perhaps designate subgroup of QA doe RC testing? | 12:20 |
| jds2001 | right, eve nthough i have crappy internet at home, getting to alt around rc time is slow as can be. | 12:20 |
| wwoods | also, we have an informal agreement that QA doesn't need a board, voting policy, or other bureaucracy. | 12:20 |
| wwoods | what it *does* need is better guidelines and documents for testers | 12:21 |
| wwoods | and better tools for testing | 12:21 |
| viking_ice | so wwoods your make your self unemployed | 12:21 |
| jds2001 | indeed, no board, good documents, good tools. | 12:21 |
| f13 | leitz: I don't necessarily think we need to subgroup at this point. If there is ever a problem, then maybe. | 12:21 |
| jds2001 | that is my job at $DAYJOB as well. I've been largely successful :D | 12:21 |
| viking_ice | wwoods: how can I contact maintainers and behalf of QA regarding QA matters | 12:22 |
| leitz | No board, but not sure we have the right structure yet though. | 12:22 |
| f13 | viking_ice: not really. wwoods' day job is to ensure that Fedora QA gets done. How it gets done doesn't matter, just that it gets done. | 12:22 |
| viking_ice | We need an offical list of QA members | 12:22 |
| f13 | viking_ice: you just say "hey, I"m working on QA and..." | 12:23 |
| f13 | viking_ice: why? For what purpose? | 12:23 |
| f13 | I'm not disagreeing necessarily, but I want to know what purpose that would serve | 12:23 |
| leitz | f13, a sub-group informally. | 12:23 |
| f13 | leitz: that'll be informally formed by the people actually doing the testing and recording results (: | 12:24 |
| viking_ice | First of all because this whole appointed thing that has been done so far has failed to establish a community and an alternative approach needs to be done to build up that community again | 12:24 |
| leitz | f13, as long as there's enough structure for a potential to know who to talk to and how to join, I'm happy. | 12:24 |
| wwoods | in all seriousness, feel free to start your own QA group | 12:24 |
| wwoods | if you want to do something more formal that's fine | 12:25 |
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| viking_ice | f13: should we approach maintainers for test cases or should we *hint* them to come to use us? | 12:25 |
| wwoods | if we've got KDE and GNOME surely we can accomodate multiple QA groups | 12:26 |
| f13 | viking_ice: I don't see how bring an "official" member of the QA team or not will help with maintainer test cases. | 12:26 |
| wwoods | I just don't see how it's helpful to make a group that's *harder* to manage | 12:26 |
| f13 | they're either going to work with you or not, and being a "member" of QA isn't going to help that, nor will it force anything. | 12:26 |
| viking_ice | ok | 12:27 |
| f13 | viking_ice: I'm more inclined to attribute the lack of a large QA group to the fact that QA work is hard and not fun, particularly when not being paid for it. | 12:27 |
| wwoods | I like to think that spending more time on improving the tools to make it less hard | 12:28 |
| wwoods | would be the best way to get more people to participate | 12:28 |
| wwoods | but then, I'm a tools guy | 12:28 |
| * wwoods has a hammer, sees a lot of nails | 12:28 | |
| f13 | and I'm just a tool | 12:28 |
| viking_ice | No we had much more activity in six and seven when the testers where actually communicated to | 12:28 |
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| viking_ice | it died when the communication stop coming from the head | 12:29 |
| adamw | i think viking's perspective is the more useful one...f13 may have a point but there's nothing we can do about that, really | 12:29 |
| f13 | I'm not sure I agree with that at all. | 12:29 |
| adamw | it's hard to change the *nature* of qa work | 12:29 |
| wwoods | in six and seven we still produced all of the bits internally at RH, there were no spins | 12:30 |
| f13 | I think it died in 7 when we more than doubled the size of "Fedora" and reduced the tools we had to do testing by moving things outside of Red Hat. | 12:30 |
| viking_ice | We need to establish better communication to the test-list we need to redirect test topics of devel to the test list ( as used to be done ) | 12:30 |
| wwoods | and the distro consisted of 3000-4000 packages instead of 10000 | 12:30 |
| viking_ice | first you can not carry all the qa work by your self it's impossible you need the community help | 12:31 |
| viking_ice | there has not been sent any word on what is being considered in automation | 12:31 |
| f13 | the community is helping, just look at the flood of incoming bugs. | 12:31 |
| jwb | i've seen very little test related email on fedora-devel lately | 12:31 |
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| f13 | viking_ice: not any word, except for the posted video from the FUDCon session on it? | 12:32 |
| jwb | arguably that same content could be summarized in an email | 12:32 |
| viking_ice | was there a link sent to the test list about that video ( | 12:32 |
| f13 | they were announced via fedora-announce-list | 12:33 |
| f13 | which any engaged tester should be on | 12:33 |
| leitz | Team Guideline 6) #fedora-meeting gets released back to the community after we've been hashing and thrashing for 90+ minutes... | 12:33 |
| viking_ice | jwb: it's not a question of quantity to the devel list more about it being redirect to test list | 12:33 |
| viking_ice | We need more docs we need more test cases ( we are working on that ) | 12:33 |
| jwb | if there is nothing to redirect, i fail to see how more focus on redirecting it is going to help anything | 12:34 |
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| f13 | especially because fedora-test-list has become "Help me with this problem I'm having" | 12:35 |
| f13 | eg end user support | 12:35 |
| stickster | f13: Only for Rawhide -- or at least, that's how it *should* be used. | 12:35 |
| viking_ice | f13: no there's very little if some ( there is one confused tester ) | 12:35 |
| f13 | viking_ice: I beg to differ. Every day it's more of the same. | 12:36 |
| wwoods | okay, so we're agreed: more info to fedora-test-list about what's going on and what to test | 12:36 |
| viking_ice | usually reports in vague | 12:36 |
| wwoods | so people will stop spinning their wheels | 12:36 |
| wwoods | and repeating the same vague test reports | 12:36 |
| f13 | stickster: I'm not quite sure I agree with that. If we really want it to be a list to discuss QA/testing matters, it can't be an end user support forum. | 12:36 |
| viking_ice | if it's for rawhide it can | 12:36 |
| stickster | f13: People running Rawhide *are* testing. | 12:36 |
| viking_ice | +1 | 12:36 |
| wwoods | yeah rawhide users aren't end-users | 12:36 |
| f13 | stickster: yes and no. | 12:37 |
| wwoods | so rawhide support is a form of testing | 12:37 |
| wwoods | but "still doesn't work" and "can't play mp3s" are not helpful | 12:37 |
| stickster | But we should be turning away questions on, say, some question on F10 | 12:37 |
| f13 | stickster: "HALP MY X IS BROKEN" is different from "How can we test X?" | 12:37 |
| wwoods | so some direction needs to be given on how to test rawhide | 12:37 |
| viking_ice | again back to lack of doc | 12:37 |
| stickster | wwoods: That much is true -- the moderators/leaders on fedora-test-list should have a clear place to point which indicates "Here is what we will help you with on this list viz. Rawhide." | 12:37 |
| jwb | people don't read docs | 12:37 |
| jwb | (no offense stickster) | 12:38 |
| leitz | jwb, I do. | 12:38 |
| jwb | you are not "people" | 12:38 |
| f13 | You can lead a user to docs, but you can't beat him/her about the head with them. | 12:38 |
| * leitz wonders how many ways that can be taken... :) | 12:38 | |
| stickster | :-) But having the doc is sometimes the more important factor. | 12:38 |
| viking_ice | jwb: are you saying that all the effort that jlaska is coming up with his virtual lab setup are then in vain | 12:38 |
| jwb | leitz, i mean no offense. take that as a compliment :) | 12:38 |
| leitz | hehe...no problem... | 12:39 |
| stickster | If we don't document something, it doesn't exist. That's our fault as community leaders. If we do and someone doesn't read it, we can point them to it. If they refuse to look, we know we can spend our time on other pursuits. | 12:39 |
| viking_ice | mean I was going to train testers I would certainty point to the final out from that | 12:39 |
| jwb | viking_ice, not at all. i'm saying that just because we have more docs available, that does not mean we will get less emails about random problems | 12:39 |
| jwb | it simply means we'll have more opportunity to point people to them and say RTFM | 12:39 |
| stickster | Where RTFM is *actually useful*, that's valid. As a general answer, it's not -- in specific cases it is, as long as it's done in a helpful way. | 12:40 |
| jwb | i was being blunt to prove a point :) | 12:40 |
| wwoods | so, yeah, we need to wtfm | 12:40 |
| wwoods | so we can tell test-list to rtfm | 12:41 |
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| wwoods | in those circumstances where tfm would actually help | 12:41 |
| wwoods | docs good. mentoring good. | 12:41 |
| stickster | Will someone take the action of writing that short page, explaining what kind of audience and questions fedora-test-list is for, and how a subscriber can write a worthwhile question/post? | 12:42 |
| * stickster just making a suggestion for next action | 12:42 | |
| jwb | it should be on the mailman page for the list itself | 12:42 |
| viking_ice | stickster: could you create a ticket in fedora-qa trac instance for that | 12:42 |
| wwoods | nobody ever reads that, but it should be there | 12:42 |
| wwoods | "fedora-test-list -- For testers of Fedora Core development releases" | 12:42 |
| jwb | thanks for reiterating my point wwoods ;) | 12:43 |
| wwoods | okay. we are now at an epic 2 hours, 45 minutes | 12:44 |
| wwoods | for a one hour meeting | 12:44 |
| wwoods | help me summarize. | 12:44 |
| wwoods | * F11 alpha is on its way out. As always, there are some bugs, but it's mostly OK. | 12:45 |
| wwoods | Biggest problem: bug 480667 | 12:45 |
| buggbot | Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=480667 medium, low, ---, pjones@redhat.com, NEW, nash unable to find dm devs by uuid or label causing boot to fail | 12:45 |
| wwoods | boot_delay=5 might help if your system won't boot, or do 'root=/dev/[volgroup]/[logvol]' | 12:45 |
| stickster | viking_ice: wwoods: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-qa/ticket/10 | 12:46 |
| f13 | boot_delay=5~30 PLUS removing 'quiet' | 12:46 |
| wwoods | * We had some problems during testing because of mismatched test images. From now on, we want to make sure testers all use the same images. More on this later. | 12:46 |
| * leitz goes to get ready for phone interview... | 12:46 | |
| -!- leitz is now known as leitz_afk | 12:46 | |
| wwoods | * The wiki QA: namespace is to be used for QA stuff that is *primarily* written for testers - test plans, cases, debugging tips, etc. | 12:47 |
| wwoods | * General interest documentation - what QA is, how it works, what we do, how to help - goes in the normal wiki. | 12:47 |
| wwoods | * Wiki gurus would like to remind you to use natural-language names for your pages, avoiding slashes | 12:48 |
| -!- stickster is now known as stickster_food | 12:48 | |
| wwoods | * We'll move the existing test plans/cases to QA: | 12:48 |
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| wwoods | * The QA team has decided that it doesn't currently need a board, or voting procedures, or other formal bureaucracy | 12:49 |
| wwoods | * What we *do* need are more useful instructions and tools for testers. | 12:49 |
| wwoods | * These instructions should be clearly communicated to fedora-test-list | 12:49 |
| wwoods | * The one thing that we *do* need formal organization for is: allowing access to the staging area for release candidate images. | 12:50 |
| wwoods | * Soon we'll set up a private mirror for QA team members. Once that happens, we'll announce it and tell you how to request access. | 12:50 |
| wwoods | oh, this should have been a bit earlier: | 12:51 |
| wwoods | * The QA team's purpose is to ensure the quality of the software produced by the Fedora project, through testing and other appropriate methods. | 12:52 |
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| viking_ice | so QA == SQC | 12:53 |
| viking_ice | or QC | 12:53 |
| wwoods | ** Note that this does not involve deciding the composition of the product (that's FESCo's job), except insofar as we advise other teams on whether their plans are reasonable, testable, etc. | 12:53 |
| wwoods | use whatever letters you want, we're still the QA team because that's the common parlance | 12:53 |
| wwoods | have I missed anything? | 12:53 |
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| leitz_afk | BBQ tomorrow. | 12:54 |
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| daumas | looks good. probably want to include something on fedoraproject.org/en/join-fedora ?? | 12:55 |
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| viking_ice | Yeah we need to fix that | 12:56 |
| wwoods | let me clarify about the mirror: it'll be restricted to members of *a certain group in the fedora account system*, but that just means that you have access to the RC bits. being a "QA team member" is distinct from that, and is largely informal. | 12:56 |
| viking_ice | not the fedoraproject.org/en/join-fedora but the page that comes after you click an iconn | 12:56 |
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| daumas | yes. and with that i'm out to lunch. | 12:56 |
| leitz_afk | daumas, are you on the fedora-test-list list? | 12:56 |
| wwoods | ah yes: | 12:56 |
| wwoods | * qa team members have come to the consensus that beer is good | 12:57 |
| f13 | fwiw, I just saw a nash patch that may fix the root mounting bug | 12:57 |
| wwoods | yeah, pjones said hansg might have a fix for that | 12:57 |
| viking_ice | as long it's not American one will give Canadian a try when I get my hands on it | 12:57 |
| leitz_afk | German... | 12:58 |
| * nirik would like to mention to all the QA folk that we are doing some IRC Classroom sessions this coming weekend. If anyone would like to teach a class on QA related topics, they would be most welcome to. | 12:58 | |
| wwoods | okay! I'm saving the log and will upload it to http://wwoods.fedorapeople.org/fedora-qa/ | 12:59 |
| wwoods | I'll send a summary to fedora-test-list this afternoon | 12:59 |
| wwoods | thanks for your time, folks | 13:00 |
| viking_ice | great.. | 13:00 |
| viking_ice | Thanks for the holding this meeting | 13:00 |
| wwoods | oh! should we change the meeting time for next week? | 13:00 |
| f13 | why? | 13:00 |
| wwoods | (since we don't have to worry about FESCo and I know we have a bunch of westcoasters who might appreciate something a bit later than 7am) | 13:00 |
| viking_ice | should we settle on one time to always be that time? | 13:01 |
| f13 | 8am | 13:01 |
| * viking_ice needs UTC | 13:01 | |
| wwoods | technically the meeting is listed as 1500UTC - 10am EST | 13:01 |
| f13 | aah, I had it in my phone for 1600 UTC | 13:01 |
| viking_ice | I'm usually up 36 hours so let's try to keep somewhat in that time frame | 13:01 |
| wwoods | it's 1500UTC, which is 11am EDT | 13:02 |
| wwoods | but now we're in EST so... | 13:02 |
| f13 | I'm OK with 1600 UTC | 13:02 |
| f13 | but no earlier | 13:02 |
| viking_ice | like it had been for this meeting | 13:03 |
| viking_ice | any one who cannot attend the QA meeting @ 16:00 UTC | 13:03 |
| viking_ice | going once.... | 13:03 |
| wwoods | fine with me | 13:04 |
| viking_ice | going twice.. | 13:04 |
| f13 | 1600 UTC, not to be changed when DST hits | 13:04 |
| f13 | wwoods: you still take your lunch at 1pm anyway right? | 13:05 |
| wwoods | Sold! I'll move the meeting time on the wiki page - 1600UTC, regardless of US DST | 13:05 |
| * viking_ice unaffected by "daylight savings" | 13:05 | |
| wwoods | I take my lunch whenever I can get it. | 13:05 |
| wwoods | but I am a complete zombie before 1400UTC. | 13:05 |
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| wwoods | alright | 13:06 |
| wwoods | thanks again, everyone | 13:06 |
| --- Log closed Wed Feb 04 13:06:32 2009 | ||
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