--- Log opened Wed Feb 25 11:05:01 2009
* jlaska 11:05
* f13 11:05
wwoodslet us all don our meeting hats11:05
wwoodsand taste the excitement11:05
daumasmy excitement tastes a little stale11:06
wwoodsanyone else here for the QA meeting? say something for the log11:06
* adamw gets confused and tastes his hat11:06
jwbhey so... ppc should actually install today11:06
wwoodsjwb: wat?!11:06
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wwoodswho let that happen11:06
wwoodsI thought our PPC policy was "ignore it until it goes away"11:07
jwbmostly a combination of me beating the kernel to death, jakub fixing gcc, and kylem (aka jkkm) fixing module builds11:07
* wwoods is kidding, of course11:07
jlaskajwb: that issue is now fixed?11:07
jwbX is still buggered, but ajax is fixing that11:07
* jlaska queues up a cobbler ppc install11:07
wwoodswell, let's segue into a pre-Beta blocker discussion11:08
jwbjlaska, should be.  i at least have a fairly recent rawhide kernel booting on the G511:08
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | Beta coming11:08
jwbwwoods, yeah, sorry11:08
wwoodsso when's the beta freeze?11:08
jwbor somethign like that11:08
f13feature freeze is next Tuesday11:08
wwoodsand we are currently in the midst of the Mass Rebuild11:08
f13all features should be in a testable point, the week between feature freeze and beta freeze is for fixing last minute feature issues and integration issues11:09
f13as opposed to waiting until the last minute to crash land features.11:09
jlaskafor the logs ... the full schedule is available at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/11/Schedule11:10
wwoodsOkay! So this is also a good time (and I should have pinged the BugZappers about this) to start putting bugs onto the F11Beta blocker11:10
f13yes yes indeed11:11
wwoodsand/or pruning bugs from it11:11
buggbotBug 476774: medium, low, ---, notting@redhat.com, ASSIGNED, Fedora 11 Beta tracker11:11
wwoodsnote that we also have a tracking bug for Intel KMS: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=F11IntelKMS11:11
buggbotBug 487202: medium, low, ---, krh@redhat.com, ASSIGNED, F11 Intel Kernel Modesetting driver tracking bug11:11
wwoodsI don't *think* there's anything else on the radar currently big enough to need its own tracking bug11:12
jlaskafyi ... the anaconda storage rewrite change is due for landing next week ... that's likely going going to be disruptive11:12
wwoodsjwb: so, bug 485067 (which is on the Beta list) should be fixed?11:12
buggbotBug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=485067 medium, low, ---, jakub@redhat.com, ASSIGNED, rawhide kernel.ppc64 fails to boot on ppc11:12
adamwwwoods: possibly nouveau. but that, er, ought to work.11:13
jwbwwoods, yes11:13
jlaskawe've got a custom compose lined up (thanks f13) to get some smoke testing on before it lands in rawhide ... that combined with next weeks test day topic should help reduce the disruption11:13
wwoodsjlaska: next week's test day will be for the storage rewrite?11:13
wwoodsshould we schedule a video test day for nouveau and intel kms?11:13
adamwi was planning on doing an nvidia test day11:14
adamwor at least asking ben if he wants to11:14
jlaskawwoods: no objections here ... there are test day slots available if we have enough developer and test interest11:14
adamwi'm not sure a combined nvidia / intel one is a good idea, it would get noisy11:14
adamwsince they're different drivers for different hardware maintained by different developers...11:14
jlaskafor the logs (again) ... the test day schedule is at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Test_Days/F1111:14
wwoodsfair 'nuff, let's keep those split11:14
jlaskaadamw: the hardware-based test events (ala bootchart) seemed very successful11:15
adamwfwiw i have seen quite a few "i updated rawhide and my graphics broke" posts, and i haven't been looking very hard...so intel does look a bit dodgy.11:15
adamwjlaska: yep, seemed to go off well.11:16
wwoodsyeah, the first pass of KMS kernels was a bit dicey, but yesterday's kernel brought up X on my test machines11:16
wwoodsso that's shaping up well11:16
adamwyeah, the beta should give us a good impression of how it's going11:16
wwoodsright, the question is whether we want to schedule a test day ASAP and have fixes in *before* Beta11:17
wwoodsor if it's good enough for Beta as-is11:17
adamwhmm. don't really know. maybe we should ask the devs what they think11:17
f13I should note, that fesco needs to make the go / nogo vote on features next week11:18
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f13QA should weigh in soon if things aren't looking good for a feature.11:18
wwoodstrue. we should talk features in a sec11:18
wwoodswe're kind of drifting around here11:18
adamwsomeone link the feature list?11:19
adamwfine, i'll do it11:19
wwoodslast week we reserved time for talking features, discussing "QA group activities + goals discussion", and nitrate11:19
* jlaska trying to find minutes from last week11:20
wwoodsthat's http://wwoods.fedorapeople.org/fedora-qa/fedora-qa-20090218.log.html11:20
wwoodsspecifically http://wwoods.fedorapeople.org/fedora-qa/fedora-qa-20090218.log.html#t12:24 11:20
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wwoodsf13 is definitely right about Features needing attention but that's a big topic so let's put it aside for the moment. It might need its own meeting or something.11:21
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | autoqa update11:21
wwoodsautoqa update: uh, no real changes in the past week11:22
wwoodsI've been working on DebuginfoFS (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DebuginfoFS)11:22
wwoodsand pre-Beta testing stuff11:22
jlaskawwoods: btw ... would tomorrows Test Day be a time to make use of DebuginfoFS?11:22
wwoodsmaybe, but we don't have a public debuginfo server11:23
f13well we do have the new mailing list for autoqa results11:23
f13we need to switch qa1 to mail to that list11:23
wwoodsf13: right - what's the link for the mailman page?11:23
f13and then I can put the post-repo-update watcher in a cron job so that we get regular reports11:23
wwoodsand the plan is to wire up verifytree next, so we at least get *some* early warning for really obviously bogus rawhide trees11:24
wwoodslike "no boot images" or "no metadata"11:24
f13I've got a good start on that11:24
wwoodslet me know when you've got it running (or if you need help)11:25
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wwoodsanything else there?11:25
f13I've been distracted this week (you know, building 8K packages) but yeah.11:25
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f13I think we're going to quickly need to refine some of our results output11:26
f13perhaps turning the post-repo-update into something more like spam-o-matic output (like the rawhide reports) where every arch is in one report11:26
f13also the subject of the mails should have some clue about the test params.11:26
jlaskaare there any next steps for autoqa for next weeks meeting?11:26
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f13jlaska: I'd like to have a working example of post-tree-compose11:27
f13at least a watcher that calls autoqa11:27
jlaskayou've got a ton of work already, how's just the watcher functionality sound?11:27
wwoodsyeah, if the watcher is working, wiring up verifytree is pretty easy11:28
jlaskawwoods: anything on your end for autoqa as far as next steps ... or blockers?11:28
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wwoodsmostly -ENOTIME11:28
wwoodsbut we'll work on post-tree-compose as time allows11:29
wwoodscross your fingers and let's hope for a working verifytree by.. beta release?11:29
wwoodsshould be doable11:30
wwoodsthat's March 24, by the way.11:30
wwoods4 weeks. shouldn't be a problem.11:30
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | test case management (nitrate) update11:30
wwoodsjlaska: anything to report on nitrate?11:31
jlaskasure ...11:31
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jlaskathe nitrate development team is focused on meeting some internal deliverable ... so I'm trying to negotiate how we can assist in popping the cork on open-sourcing their process11:31
adamwjlaska is being very diplomatic11:32
jlaskait's rough getting a project going that wasn't started on fedorahosted (as we probably all know).11:32
jlaskaI'd like to invest some time+energy into opening up this effort ... but at some point we'll have to go to plan b11:33
jlaska(or d)11:33
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jlaskaI'm always open to ideas or suggestions on how we can help them transition ... so feel free to hit me up with concerns/ideas11:33
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jlaskaonce transitioned, we can start talking about packaging, a demo instance and hosting etc... but my focus for now is the transition11:34
wwoodsshould we shelve that and start moving forward with trying to set up a mediawiki instance with the semantic-mediawiki plugin11:35
jlaskasure, we can investigate that in parallel11:35
jlaskabtw ... semantic mediawiki notes (https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2009-February/msg00756.html)11:35
wwoodsI don't think we have the manpower to do those things in parallel11:35
f13jlaska: well, I can put some pressure up my management chain, that might help.11:35
jlaskawwoods: let me take an action item to revisit with fcami to ensure the semantic meets his needs.  I'd like to find out what we'd need to do from the infrastructure folks to make it work11:36
adamwwasn't someone supposed to be doing that last week?11:37
wwoodsokay then11:37
adamwi'm fairly sure that was on the meeting wrap-up11:37
jlaskaadamw: yes, I took that one ... but didn't follow through :(11:37
adamwjlaska: well, if you find you don't have the time this week either, let me know and i'll do it11:38
jlaskaadamw: okay, I've prioritized that for today ... and we can chat tomorrow11:38
jlaskaso that's all I have for nitrate update ... unless any other questions/concerns?11:39
wwoodsnone here, let's move on11:39
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | "QA group activities + goals discussion"11:39
wwoodsjlaska, you wanted to talk about this11:40
wwoodsthere's also the fedora-test-list thread: 11:40
jlaskathx ... was going to grab that thread11:40
jlaskaadamw's mail sums it up better than I could ...11:41
jlaskaI'd like to spend some time outlining some high level objectives for the fedora qa team11:41
jlaskathe current draft of goals for the team is available at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Goals11:41
jlaskaI don't want to get too fluffy (pie in the sky) with the goals, but certainly want to provide direction on where we'll be focusing the majority of our energy11:42
jlaskathere's about a million things we {sh,c}ould be doing ... there is only so much time+resource ... so this is meant to capture what the team feels is the most vital to Fedora11:43
adamwMaking Shit Work11:43
jlaskaaka  M.S.W.11:43
jlaskaso please feel free to add thoughts/concern/ideas to adamw's thread11:44
f13well, we should be finding broken shit, and poking the maintainer to make it work11:44
jlaskaI though markmc very constructive comments around the "Increase participation in Rawhide "11:44
f13otherwise we'll find something broken, spend a lot of time fixing it, and not notice the rest of the broken stuff11:44
wwoodsright, markmc's point, in short, was that keeping around a RawhideBlocker bug is a pretty good idea11:45
wwoods(assuming you have a good definition for what qualifies as a Rawhide Blocker)11:45
jlaskaright on11:45
adamwshould note that mark mailed me in private to say i just jfdi with regards to evangelizing wider rawhide use, but i'm still not comfortable with that yet. the toe dips i've made into the -devel list are already hairy enough. :)11:46
jlaskaokay ... that's it from me ... adamw, anypoints I missed?11:46
f13I agree with mark11:46
adamwnope, not really. i was quite happy with the responses, tbh11:46
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jlaskaI gather this (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Goals) will be a living document ... but I like to at least have something that gives us direction/guidance11:47
jlaskawwoods: that's it for me11:47
wwoodsthe main thing that came out of that discussion that we should be working on is: post-compose checks for rawhide (for serious) 11:47
wwoodshttps://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JohnPoelstra/ImproveRawhideF10#Defining_GOOD is a good list of things to check11:48
adamwyes, i do think that should be a priority area11:48
adamwbasically what i like about rawhide is it's the low level11:48
adamwit's where everything else comes from11:48
adamwfixing stuff in rawhide benefits all releases, spinoffs, rhel, the lot11:48
adamwif we're catching brokenness at the point where stuff hits rawhide it will ultimately have a knock-on effect on the quality of stuff that hits everything else11:49
wwoodsabsolutely. it's unquestionably worthwhile.11:49
jlaskaI should note that if something isn't excplicitly listed as a focus area/goal ... we're likely not going to invest a lot of time there right now11:50
wwoodsbut first we have to get ready for this Feature freeze - including a full distro rebuild, checking features for testability, and landing a couple of features of our own11:50
wwoodsis there anything else we need to discuss from that thread, or should we start talking about Feature Freeze11:51
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jlaskanothing from me11:52
wwoodsokay, here we go.11:52
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | F11 Features11:52
wwoodsthere is a *lot* of stuff here.11:52
wwoodsall of it needs to be testable and have a usable test plan by.. feature freeze? 11:53
wwoodsor beta freeze?11:53
wwoodseither way, in the next 2 weeks, either they're testable or they get deferred to F1211:53
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wwoods(or, in some cases, they'll get extensions, meaning they're allowed to land a bit late)11:54
jlaskawwoods: is testable a gut feel, or is there some basic checklist we can apply?11:54
wwoodsit's a checklist with one item: "can you test this"11:54
f13wwoods: QA should be happy with the state of the feature page by Feature freeze11:54
f13wwoods: if it's in after feature freeze, it's in.  It can be bounced any time prior to feature freeze11:55
wwoodsjlaska: heh, sorry. that wasn't a useful answer. 11:55
wwoodsbut it's pretty simple: the "How To Test" section should contain instructions that you (or I or anyone) can follow to confirm that the feature is working as described in the Scope section11:56
wwoodsif that's not the case, edit the Talk page11:56
* mkoci_koca bbl11:56
jlaskawwoods: should we use mediawiki categories to list which features have been reviewed11:56
wwoodsjlaska: indeed we should! 11:57
wwoodsI believe I created a couple11:57
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* jlaska wondering if we can put out a call for community QA review ... and use your categories to track11:57
adamwthe ones i'd be most iffy about are http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ControlGroups , http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/AutoFontsAndMimeInstaller and possibly http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NouveauAsDefault11:57
wwoodsthere isn't even a feature page for Intel KMS11:57
wwoodswe might need to make one11:57
adamwthough 1 and 3 are at least easily revertable, they're more or less single-liners to enable / disable11:58
jlaskaadamw: do these seem like reasonable test day focus areas?11:58
adamwthe last two, yeah, i'd like to run test days on those. i am iffy about the first because it seems like a big thing that i'd never heard of before and have never seen any discussion of yet either ;)11:59
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adamware any of you familiar with it?11:59
wwoodsaha! https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:QA_approved_feature_pages 11:59
wwoodsalso Category:Features_with_incomplete_scope11:59
jlaskawwoods: thx11:59
jlaskaadamw: I'm conceptually familiar with ControlGroups11:59
adamwwhat's the skinny?11:59
wwoodsWe probably need a Category:Features_with_incomplete_test_plan12:00
jlaskaI can reach out to lwang to see if that's worthy of a test day ... or some alternative focus12:00
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adamwjlaska: is it something that would be pretty much harmless if you didn't actually actively use it?12:01
jlaskashould be12:02
adamwif that's the case i'd be less worried about it.12:02
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adamwi'll talk to ben about running a nouveau test day12:03
jlaskaany takers for the AutoFontsAndMime?12:04
jlaskaor ideas who might be interested in helping organize+drive that12:04
wwoodsCategory:Features_with_incomplete_test_plans created.12:05
adamwjlaska: one of the devs posted a vague 'please test this' mail to test-list a few days back12:06
adamwjlaska: regarding the autofonts stuff12:06
jlaskayeah, mclasen I think12:06
adamwjlaska: we could reach out to him to organize an event12:06
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jlaskayeah ... that seems best12:07
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jlaskaadamw: do you have cycles to send something to mclasen, or should we leave this up for grabs12:07
adamwi can do it12:07
wwoodsyeah, mclasen was reaching out for help on fedora-test-list: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2009-February/msg01020.html12:07
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adamwi already did the 'mail ben' bit actually12:07
adamwdoesn't take long :P12:07
wwoodsand Fearless Leader mentioned that he's been name-dropping this in interviews and such12:08
jlaskaadamw: you're too fast :)12:08
wwoodsso it should be considered as a Big Ticket Item12:08
adamwwwoods: yeah, i read that.12:08
adamwand again it's something that doesn't require specialist skills or knowledge to test12:08
jlaskacool, what else we got looming on the feature front?12:08
adamwOK, so i'll poke mclasen and see what we can arrange12:09
wwoodsext4 hasn't been scary thus far12:10
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jwbit even works on ppc12:10
wwoodsbut we'll see what happens when the LiveCD starts using it12:10
wwoodsmy ppc machine is, uh, actually running btrfs12:10
jwbwell, that makes one of you12:10
wwoodsbecause I like to mix and match my crazy-as-hell12:10
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wwoodsgcc 4.4 is getting a nice workout thanks to the Mass Rebuild Of Doom12:11
wwoodsoh, iBus is new and interesting12:11
adamwOK, consider mclasen poked12:11
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* adamw hates input method stuff12:11
wwoodssince we change input method frameworks every six months anyway12:12
wwoodswe should be used to this12:12
adamwfor mdv i had one japanese guy and one chinese guy and when it broke I just shovelled it off onto them12:12
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wwoodsthe Feature List is too big to go through in this meeting, and we don't have an overview page that shows which pages need QA approval/revisit12:13
jlaskado we need to think about getting help from fedora-test-list@ for reviewing?12:14
wwoodswe have a way to mark pages after we look at them but no way to find unmarked pages12:14
wwoodsthat's a prereq for asking for community hel12:14
adamwmore categories?12:14
jlaskacan always just say ... look at the feature, if it's not in one of the 3 QA review categories ... review it?12:14
* jlaska wonders if mediawiki fuse plugin works12:15
wwoodswe've got 37 features in the list12:15
wwoodsI don't really want to go opening them at random to see which ones need review12:15
jlaskawould we also want to add [[Category:Feature_needing_QA_approval]] to the feature template for all future features?12:16
wwoodsUnless there's a better idea I'm just going to put all of them into a new Category:Feature_needing_QA_approval, and.. exactly12:16
wwoodsin the future features will start in that category12:16
wwoodsso we shouldn't need to do this again12:16
wwoodsshould probably see what poelcat thinks of this plan12:16
wwoodsbut that seems like the simplest solution for right now12:17
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adamwi heartily endorse this feature and/or lolcat12:17
wwoodsokay then!12:18
wwoodsI'll put all the features in Category:Feature_needing_QA_approval12:18
wwoods(well, first I'll create that page)12:18
wwoodsand then send mail to fedora-test-list asking people to review features in that category12:19
wwoodsplease check https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Features_with_incomplete_scope 12:19
wwoodsand https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Features_with_incomplete_test_plans 12:19
wwoodsand make sure the guidelines there are OK12:20
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wwoodsand anyone who's particularly keen to see a feature dropped / updated / accepted should go to the next FESCo meeting to talk about the status of the feature page12:20
* jlaska back ... laptop just hung12:21
jlaskawwoods: thanks12:21
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wwoodsthis may lead to us needing to discuss better guidelines for QA Review of Feature Pages (tm)12:22
wwoodsbut hopefully it should be pretty obvious12:22
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wwoodsokay. anything else about F11 Features?12:22
daumasthere's not enough of them?12:23
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | misc.12:23
wwoodsthere's 37!12:23
wwoodsthat's plenty!12:23
jlaskawwoods: I agree, going through the motions will help identify any guidelines/doc gaps12:24
wwoodsanything else we need to discuss that I may have forgotten about?\12:24
adamwtest day tomorrow?12:24
adamwis everyone happy with the arrangements?12:24
adamwwell, except that we don't have a working package from the developers yet12:24
f13what's tomorrow's test day?12:25
jlaskaadamw: rbiba zprikryl ... any thoughts there?12:25
jlaskaf13: CrashCatcher12:25
jlaskaanother for the logs ... https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Test_Days/2009-02-2612:25
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jlaskajmoskovc` too12:26
jmoskovc`jlaska: i'm here :)12:26
jlaskatalking about preparations for tomorrows crash catcher test day.  How are you guys making out with having packages available for test?12:26
wwoods(interesting! debuginfo data for F10+rawhide, i386+x86_64 ~= 110GB)12:26
wwoods(maybe we can have a public debuginfo server after all..)12:27
jlaskawwoods: were you expecting worse?12:27
jmoskovc`jlaska: working on it :)12:27
wwoodsjlaska: yes - we were expecting ~350-500GB12:27
jlaskawwoods: ouch12:27
adamwjmoskovc`: are you guys happy with my re-arrangement of the test day page?12:28
jmoskovc`adamw: dunno haven;t seen it yet :)12:28
adamwah. :) well, really i just turned 'how to test' into a proper test case and linked to it12:29
adamwthere's also a placeholder link for the package in the text12:29
zprikryladamw: thanks :-)12:29
adamwso you just need to stick the URL into that once it's available12:29
wwoodsunfortunately wdfs is a crappy fuse-webdav implementation for this purpose - AFAICT it downloads the entire data file rather than seek()ing into it, and then it doesn't cache the downloaded data12:29
jlaskawe've got a table to collect app-specific results if desired12:29
adamwis it likely that crashcatcher's behaviour will be significantly different for different apps?12:29
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adamwi.e. is it realistically likely that it'll work with some apps but not others?12:30
adamwor is that one of the things we need to find out? :)12:30
jlaskaI was leaning towards the later12:30
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zprikryladamw: it should work with all apps :-) (unless an app is in a package which is in the blacklist)12:31
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jlaskajmoskovc` is opening up a package review bugzilla for crash-catcher now ... is there a list or channel we can ask for review help?12:31
adamw-devel i guess?12:32
jlaskaanything else to discuss under "misc" ?12:34
wwoodsI think we're good12:34
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wwoodsa quick recap of decisions / actions:12:34
hondrajmoskovc`, is is possible to test CC in console (no X environment) ?12:34
wwoods- jlaska (and/or adamw) to talk to fcami and Infrastructure about the semantic mediawiki plugin12:35
zprikrylhondra: yes12:35
hondrazprikryl, so it can be maybe aded to the testcases ?12:35
adamwhondra: "test it with every app you have installed" is kind of a big test case :)12:35
zprikrylhondra: but only in debugmode and no all functions are available12:35
jlaskaadamw: perhaps we can identify a class of apps12:36
jlaskatext / gui / servers / dbs etc... ?12:36
adamwjlaska: i'd mostly want to get tests with every big app that crashes a lot12:36
jmoskovc`jlaska: try smth with small coredump and smth with really big coredump :)12:36
wwoods- autoqa "post-tree-compose" watcher and verifytree tests are top priority for autoqa (but f13 / wwoods are busy) - target completion date March 2412:36
adamwjlaska: i.e. firefox, evolution, openoffice, stuff everyone runs12:36
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jlaskayeah, that's a great approach12:36
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wwoods- Rawhide is still awesome12:37
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zprikryladamw: you'll wait a long time because of installation of debuginfos, at the begining, try smth smaller12:37
* jlaska digesting summary12:37
wwoods- good luck to viking-ice in his archery competition12:37
wwoods- wwoods to create Category:Feature_needing_QA_approval and put all unreviewed Feature pages into that category12:37
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hondrazprikryl, what about different setup/configuration of CC, are there any possibilities (does it make sense) ?12:38
wwoods- wwoods to email fedora-test-list asking for help reviewing pages in Category:Feature_needing_QA_approval12:38
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hondraadamw, I meant GUI vs TUI  - the testcase is designed to run in GUI12:38
zprikrylhondra: there are several options for CC and for CC's plugins12:38
adamwhondra: oh, yes, missed that flow :)12:39
wwoods- Test days for intel KMS, nouveau, AutoFontsAndMimeInstaller (dates TBD)12:39
adamwif you guys want to do a quick summary of this discussion about different facets of CC that need testing, i can turn it into testcases12:39
adamwjust drop me an email or throw it in the wiki somewhere or something12:39
wwoodsanything else from the meeting for the summary?12:40
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jlaskawwoods: you got all the points I recall ... thanks for summarizing12:40
hondrazprikryl, then we can test several different configurations, are you able to upload some conf files?12:40
wwoodsokay then - meeting's over, but please feel free to continue the CC discussion12:41
--- Log closed Wed Feb 25 12:41:28 2009

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