--- Log opened Wed Mar 04 11:03:41 2009
* jlaska 11:03
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wwoodsQA meeting! whee! say hi for the logs, everyone11:03
* viking_ice Greets everyone 11:04
wwoodsAs jlaska pointed out - this weekend Daylight Savings Time goes into effect in the US11:05
* jlaska ready to save daylight!11:05
wwoodsthe next meeting will still be at 1600UTC, but that's going to be 10AM US Eastern 11:05
* f13 11:06
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* adamw weeps11:06
f13adamw: me too11:06
f13I don't know if I'll reliably make it11:06
wwoodsyeah, it's kind of rough on the west coasters11:06
adamwwhy do we follow dst? just because utc does? it doesn't make an awful lot of sense, as people's schedules don't really change with dst.11:06
f13s'ok, i'll just be semi-incoherant.11:07
wwoodsno, we *don't* follow UTC11:07
wwoodswe don't follow *DST*11:07
adamwer, yeah11:07
wwoodsthe meeting time is (currently) locked to 1600UTC11:07
adamwsee, i'll be WORSE than this ;)11:07
f13I'm awake at 7 usually due to the kid.11:07
wwoodsso when DST changes your offset from UTC, your local meeting time changes11:07
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wwoodsconsider this another reason to petition your government to stop doing DST!11:08
wwoodsstupid, stupid daylight savings time11:08
jlaskawould it just be easier to change to 1700UTC?11:08
wwoodsuntil that happens.. do we need to move the meeting later so we aren't screwing up the west coasters?11:08
jlaskathat itme probably works better for europe and west coast11:08
wwoodsmeeting at 1700UTC? viking_ice, does that work for you?11:09
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wwoods(any other non-North-American attendees are welcome to comment as well)11:09
viking_icewwoods: Yup11:10
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wwoodsthe schedule has the room clear 'til 190011:12
wwoodsso that works fine11:12
wwoodsokay: let's move the meeting to 1700UTC, starting next week11:12
wwoodswhich coincides with US DST, so the meeting time does *not* change for those of us following DST11:12
jlaskaany wiki table updates needed to communicate that change?11:13
wwoodsyup, doing that now11:13
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* viking_ice sees eggsellent as some kind of American egg salad thingy 11:13
jlaskaheh ... nah ... too much Simpsons11:13
jlaskaalthough the former would be good too11:13
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wwoodsOkay, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting_channel updated11:14
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f13we're changing for DST, but not changing for DST (:11:14
wwoodsI don't have an agenda, but11:14
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | Mass Rebuild11:14
wwoodsyay! mass rebuild!11:14
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jlaskawwoods: should we start with our action items from last week?11:14
jlaskajust a quick run through?11:14
wwoodser, I suppose11:14
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | review last week11:15
viking_icedepends where on the food chain you are..  animals eat grass I eat animals so I dont need to grass with my dinner11:15
viking_iceken lee strikes again...11:15
wwoodsokay, so11:15
wwoods- jlaska (and/or adamw) to talk to fcami and Infrastructure about the semantic mediawiki plugin11:15
jlaskayeah I spoke with fcami several times since that meeting11:16
wwoodsanything to report, or just: "in progress, more details as they come in"11:16
adamwnothing from me, jlaska didn't ping for help11:16
jlaskaI don't think it's the exact fit for what his focus is ... but thanks to adamw and fcami's nudging ... I'm looking into what we'd need to line up for a proof-of-concept with infrastructure11:16
* jlaska can't type fast enough11:16
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* jlaska finds mail link ...11:17
jlaskaso to proceed ... I'll need to get the semantic extensions packaged in fedora11:17
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jlaskaif anyone is interested in helping out on the packaging front, drop me a line please11:17
* viking_ice points jlaska to "Typing of the dead ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Typing_of_the_Dead ) " should improve your typing skills 11:18
jlaskathat's it from me on that topic ... any thoughts/concerns/suggestions?11:18
adamwjlaska: i can do that.11:18
wwoodsI actually own Typing of the dead - special Dreamcast keyboard and all - so if you ever want to practice typing by KILLING ZOMBIES11:18
wwoodslet me know11:18
adamw(help with packaging)11:18
jlaskaadamw: thanks .. I'm familiarizing myself with how it's structured now ... we can chat after the meeting then?11:19
* adamw practices typing via high-speed devel-list trolling11:19
adamwjlaska: sure11:19
wwoodsokay, next: - autoqa "post-tree-compose" watcher and verifytree tests are top priority for autoqa (but f13 / wwoods are busy) - target completion date March 2411:19
wwoodsyep, mass rebuild + feature freeze + wwoods sick for a few days = no progress11:19
f13yeah, no progress on this end from me11:19
wwoodswe'll talk about that soon, once we're sure the mass rebuild / beta / etc. is sorted11:20
wwoods- Rawhide is still awesome11:20
viking_iceas always..11:20
jlaskathat's okay if no progress due to time conflicts .. .we can keep revisiting as a status checkin if we like11:20
wwoods- good luck to viking-ice in his archery competition11:20
wwoodsviking_ice: how'd it go?11:20
viking_iceFirst of the Icelanders and in 13th place in my category11:21
adamwi remember first of icelanders wasn't very tough, right? :P11:21
viking_iceSince I was the only Icelander to compete....11:21
wwoodsgood stuff11:22
wwoodsnow if there was an *archery* of the dead game..11:22
wwoodswe'd be all set for training for the coming zombie apocalypse, for sure11:22
wwoods- wwoods to create Category:Feature_needing_QA_approval and put all unreviewed Feature pages into that category11:23
* viking_ice notes down to create zombie foam targets 11:23
wwoodsDone: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Features_needing_QA_approval11:23
wwoodsthere's 34 features there (well, 33 - ignore the EmptyTemplate)11:23
wwoodsI emailed -test-list for help reviewing 11:24
adamwso, still 33 needing review?11:24
wwoodsyes, 33 un-reviewed11:24
f13isn't it a little late now that feature freeze has passed?11:24
adamwwhat's the deadline? yesterday? :)11:24
wwoods2 with incomplete Scope and 1 with an incomplete test plan11:24
f13or is it review to help create test cases adn such11:24
wwoodsf13: the latter - FESCo doesn't have a problem with the contents, but we need to review the test plan and be sure we have enough info to actually test the feature11:25
wwoodsso - check the info on the feature page and ask questions to help get a plan written11:25
adamwso, how many features *have* been reviewed?11:26
wwoodswell, the 3 incomplete ones I mentioned, plus one approved page11:27
wwoodsplus I did 3 last week that didn't get put into the approved category11:27
adamwok, so, we're not doing well on getting people to do stuff there11:28
viking_icehum we got ext4 covered already I think along with crashcatcher  Fingerprint I think has an good enought test description11:28
adamwi'll see if i can do anything...11:28
wwoodsokay, pages edited - there's now 4 pages marked approved11:28
viking_iceEmpathy as well I think11:28
wwoodssome feature pages lack the "needing approval" category11:29
jlaskaI"m fairly comfortable about features that have had test days ... I plan to set aside some time during tomorrow's event to pick off a few11:29
wwoodsI thought we had.. 57? something huge like that?11:29
wwoodsanyway if you see something unmarked, feel free to review it - or just mark it as in need of review11:29
wwoodsotherwise we're currently at 7/40 reviewed11:30
viking_icehum not seeing bash 411:30
wwoodsyes, please, if you think the pages we've had test days for are OK, mark them as such11:30
jlaskawwoods: roger, will do11:30
viking_iceanyway bash 4 has test cases in the source tar ball11:30
wwoodsthat's good, but.. do we have a feature page for Bash 4?11:32
viking_icenope did no see it not considered as a feature?11:32
wwoodsmight be worth making a page for it11:32
wwoodssince it has required some nontrivial integration work11:32
wwoodsthe basic test plan is pretty simple though - make sure the normal startup scripts etc. don't blow up11:33
viking_icehum if bash skipped the radar I wonder what else did11:33
wwoodsand the scope is pretty small - new bash package.11:33
wwoodsIntel KMS wasn't a feature, originally11:33
f13viking_ice: there isn't really a 'radar', there is just maintianers bringing things to the foreground11:34
f13not every change requires a "feature" page11:34
viking_iceanyway we can I think automate most of the tests in /bash-4.0/tests/11:35
wwoodssure, if you'd like11:35
viking_icemore testing = good :)11:36
wwoodsanyway, we're still reviewing last week11:36
wwoods- Test days for intel KMS, nouveau, AutoFontsAndMimeInstaller (dates TBD)11:36
adamwnouveau is scheduled and has most of the test plans up already11:36
adamwautofonts i didn't hear back from maintainer yet11:37
adamwintel KMS didn't do anything for yet, i'll try and sort that one out this week then11:37
wwoodsintel KMS has been beaten into a fairly usable state11:37
wwoodsso it's ready for testing11:37
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jlaskawwoods: okay, so it didn't go as quick as I thought ... but thanks for reviewing last weeks items11:38
viking_iceI think we should add to this radeon and chrome testing as well and just have a big graphics test day11:38
adamwviking_ice: as i said last week, i don't think that would work as well, as we'd have to have a lot of people talking about completely different things and it'd lose focus fast11:38
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adamwi'd like to have good testing for radeon at least, too, but probably as a separate event11:39
adamwdidn't we just switch out the entire drm library for radeon?11:39
wwoodsif you want to set up separate test days for radeon or openchrome, that's fine11:39
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jlaskaif there's any way we can also run fcami's piglit suite on each of these driver focused test days11:39
* viking_ice is in NEEDINFO status on piglit 11:40
adamwif it's simple enough to install and run i could put it into the nouveau day, yes11:40
wwoodsI thought piglit was an OpenGL test suite?11:40
wwoodsthere's no 3d support in nouveau yet, AFAIK11:40
adamwah. if it's 3D, then yeah, no use.11:41
adamwwould be most useful for the radeon stuff then.11:41
wwoodsand intel.11:41
jlaskawwoods: ah yeah, you are right (3d)11:41
jlaskathere is another upstream x test suite (non 3d iirc) ... but lemme gather some details there11:42
wwoodsI'm gonna say11:42
wwoodsACTION: jlaska to investigate X test suites for intel/radeon/nouveau test days11:42
* jlaska nods11:43
wwoodsokay then11:43
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA | Mass Rebuild report11:43
adamwjlaska: there's one called rendercheck11:43
wwoodsMass rebuild is (as I understand it) complete11:43
f13about 300 packages still need to be built11:44
f13but that's on the maintainers11:44
f13and can be done as we go11:44
adamwthere were two major visible bugs caused by gcc 4.4 optimization issues, and some less visible ones11:45
adamwwhich makes me worry there might be regressions introduced there that we may not catch...11:45
wwoodsthe new hashes/checksums has made it so if your rpm is sufficiently old, you can't yum upgrade11:45
wwoodsso people have been advised to 'yum upgrade rpm' first11:45
wwoods(side note: why don't our updater tools do that automatically?)11:46
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f13wwoods: ask skvidal.  Oft times new yum requires new python requires new everything including glibc, and well now what?11:46
wwoodsadamw: right - we discussed that in the rel-eng meeting, IIRC11:47
f13up2date used to do this for years and it didn't actually help11:47
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wwoodsjakub is back this week and so f13 and I were going to ask if the miscompilation(s) can be identified11:47
wwoodsso we can figure out if we need to rebuild any other packages once we have a fixed gcc11:47
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wwoodsbut, honestly, if something is miscompiled but it behaves correctly.. is it really miscompiled?11:48
wwoodsso we're fixing the things that are obviously behaving wrong (vte, nspr)11:48
adamwwwoods: on the updater tools thing, i did make a post about that to -test-list which seems to have been roundly ignored, should i propose again on -devel-list?11:48
adamwor will i be set on fire again? :)11:48
jlaskaadamw ooh, sorry I missed that one11:49
wwoodsadamw: no, I think f13 has the essence of it11:49
viking_iceadamw: hum think I missed that one..11:49
jlaskaf13: any action required on those 300 packages prior to beta?11:49
adamwwell, how often does python get bumped to a non-backward compatible release?11:49
f13jlaska: no, they aren't beta blockers unless they are broken in some other way11:50
wwoodsthese things only happen during rawhide, and, well, that's the sort of workaround that's required to run rawhide11:50
f13adamw: every couple releases.11:50
jlaskaf13: gotcha11:50
adamwf13: right, not very often. well, anyhow. could be a long discussion11:50
f13adamw: that's once maybe twice a year11:50
wwoodsit would be better if we had a better way of getting this information to rawhiders11:50
adamwi should point out, though, that it helps with another situation, which i described in the list post11:50
f13how often do you have a real situation where updating the updater first actually fixes anything?11:50
adamwf13: in mdv i can think of, oh, two or three. they were quite big ones, though. :) and it's not the *same* time as python gets updated to a new release...11:51
wwoodsbut, basically, it sounds like the added complexity doesn't actually solve most of the observed problems11:51
f13adamw: I guess we're just more careful with our update tools (:11:51
wwoodsand it doesn't affect proper major-version-to-major-version upgrades11:51
jlaskaup2date had the update the updater concept ... and it never worked11:51
adamwwwoods: it would've solved this one. that's not the objection - the objection is that yum's dep chain is sufficiently long that it has no measurable effect. doesn't answer the question of just doing it for rpm, though.11:52
jlaskawell sorry, it worked ... but it's very flaky11:52
adamwwasn't that just because up2date was flaky? :P11:52
jlaskaheh, part of it :D11:52
wwoodsthe objection seems more general - the added complexity only fixes a very small class of problems11:52
jlaskait never forked itself properly (don't quote me on that  please) :)11:53
f13adamw: if you're hitting a case wher eyou need a newer rpm to finish the trasaction, you often need a newer yum too to work with that newer rpm, and you're back to square one11:53
wwoodsand there's a much larger set of similar problems with similar solutions11:53
wwoodsi.e. "update this other thing manually first"11:53
adamwoften, yes. not always. well, i won't push it. i just don't like the "only a few" fallacy11:53
adamwany given fix usually only fixes a few issues11:53
adamwif there were lots of cases where we could do one fix and fix a giant bunch of problems, we could finish fedora for ever next week and take some time off :P11:54
f13adamw: I and others just don't see the added complexity and flakyness as worth trying to solve the rare cases where it would help11:54
f13I'd rather just avoid those cases, particularly in a stable release11:54
adamwfair enough. i reserve the right to point and laugh when the situation i outlined in my email happens, though. :)11:55
wwoodssorry, that was a tangent11:55
adamwyeah, my fault. sorry11:55
wwoods(but a rawhide-user-notifier program is something I've had kicking around my head for a while - should reinvestigate that)11:56
wwoodsso, yes, we're going to try to figure out if we can automatically identify and rebuild other miscompiled builds 11:57
wwoodsfailing that, we'll fix the bugs as they come up11:57
wwoodswhich has worked fine so far11:57
wwoodsstill about 300 packages left unbuilt, as f13 mentioned11:57
wwoodshow are we doing with respect to rawhide composes, media composes, and live images?11:58
wwoodslast I heard, we couldn't build live images due to.. syslinux problems?11:58
f13not so good11:58
jlaskamissing i386/os/pxeboot/vmlinuz today I think ... x86_64 looks good today11:58
f13we're getting images on i386 and x86_64 with patches that are upstream in anaconda11:58
f13but those images don't actually make it past init yet11:58
f13and I'm really at a loss as to why11:58
f13and efi images are kind of screwed up11:59
f13the entire anaconda team is wrapped up in storage rewrite and efi features11:59
jlaskaf13: are these official rawhide images, or private test images you are constructing?11:59
f13private test images, there hasn't been a build of anaconda with those chnages yet11:59
f13well there was one yesterday12:00
f13but I think its missing lot sof stuff12:00
f13jeremy threw a patch to fix livecd for syslinux yesterday12:00
f13but he mentioned other issues he was working on.12:00
f13so no new build there either12:00
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wwoodsso we're currently unable to build boot images or build media, and we can't update from F11Alpha to current rawhide12:01
f13why can't you update?12:02
wwoodscan we pick a pre-Rebuild rawhide to use as our suggested install base?12:02
wwoodswell, not without manually updating RPM first12:02
wwoodsit's just a bit tricky12:02
f13it's two commands instead of one12:02
wwoodsbut we've got some known-good rawhide sitting around12:03
f13oooooooh tricky12:03
jlaskaI'm discussing which rawhide to use for tomorrow's test day with dlehman ... we'll likely be using an updates.img in conjunction with a previously working build12:03
adamwhow is this going to affect thursday's test day? does a network install of rawhide work?12:03
wwoodsI know I know, but if there's a known-good rawhide that doesn't need that12:03
jlaskaI'm not clear if they'll have all their commits and and a new anaconda rebuilt (that works) for tomorrow12:04
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jlaskathat's a lot to line up12:04
jlaskabut heck if it's there we'll definitely use it12:04
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wwoodsjlaska: cool - if you settle on a stable one, please send a note to -test-list?12:05
wwoodsotherwise we'll just continue making people deal with the horribly complex hack of typing 'yum upgrade rpm' first12:05
jlaskayeah it's really up to what works for the anaconda-devel folks12:05
jlaskaI must have been lucky ... I didn't explicitly do 'yum upgrade rpm'12:06
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jlaskaor I have a nasty bug lurking?12:06
wwoodsjlaska: right, it only happens if you're going from a sufficiently old RPM to the Post-Rebuild packages12:06
wwoods(if I understand right)12:06
jlaskaah gotcha12:06
adamwif you were updating daily you don't hit it.12:06
wwoodsif you updated after F11Alpha, you're fine12:06
jlaskaf13: do you have time after the meeting to chat in #anaconda about tomorrows rawhide build?12:07
wwoodsbut going straight from F11Alpha to the Post-Rebuild package set will blow up12:07
f13jlaska: after I fetch some breakfast I do12:07
jlaskaf13: okay ... thanks.  I think we need to coordinate a few things12:07
wwoodsalso, obviously, yum upgrades from F10 to Rawhide will break in the same way12:08
f13actually no12:08
f13the latest F10 rpm supports the larger hashes12:08
nirik(if they didn't update rpm in f10 to the latest update version first)12:08
wwoodsdid we push an RPM update? oh nice12:08
f13but you still have to yum update rpm, then yum update12:08
f13as in get the latest f10 rpm, /then/ leap to rawhide12:09
f13GOLD F10 to rawhide won't work.12:09
adamwit would if yum updated rpm first! ;) (/me ducks and runs)12:09
adamwbut i don't see that causing any major issues in practice12:09
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adamwwhy would you do a yum upgrade on a gold f10, in practice12:10
wwoodsah okay. so "sufficiently old RPM" includes F11Alpha and F10 Gold, but not F10+updates12:10
wwoodsadamw: people do all kinds of crazy shit12:10
adamwtrue. what i mean is, we can tell 'em they're being crazy12:11
wwoodsevery time a developer asks "why would anyone ever do that?" someone, somewhere *immediately* starts doing exactly that12:11
f13adamw: I think F10 -> rawhide rpm would require some glibc bits along the way12:11
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jlaskashould we move this discussion to #fedora-qa after the meeting ... or continue here?12:12
wwoodssorry, yeah12:12
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wwoodsso we should be lending a hand to the anaconda guys if possible12:13
wwoodsbut currently we're not able to build anything installable12:13
wwoodshopefully that will be fixed RSN.12:13
jlaskaI'm able to install with last nights x86_64 images ... but I don't think that has the anaconda storage changes yet (iirc)12:14
wwoodsoh it's just i386? I thought we weren't building any images12:14
jlaskaI'm not clear on that ... I don't see a pxeboot/vmlinuz for i386 from last night ... but x86_64 has all the images I needed for install12:14
f13jlaska: no, storage changes are still on a branch.12:15
jlaskaanyway, we can chat about this over in #anaconda once f13 and anaconda-devel folks have ingested some calories12:15
wwoodsso we *are* building rawhide images, live composes are actively being worked on12:16
wwoodsmedia composes.. unknown 12:16
wwoodsI'm guessing it'll all be sorted by next meeting12:16
wwoodsanything else we should discuss?12:17
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* wwoods takes that as a no12:19
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jlaskaany updates on traige activities?12:19
jlaskasorry for delay12:19
jlaskatriage even12:19
adamwwell, we have the bugzappers meeting for that :) but, yeah, it's pretty active lately12:20
adamwwe had quite a lot of new people last week, changes for the wiki are being worked on, first triage day was yesterday12:20
viking_icethere seems to be a bunch of new bugzappers joining12:20
jlaskaright ... just curiuos about any high-level take aways12:20
viking_icedid you offer free beer somewhere12:20
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jlaskayeah I'vebeen blown away with the introductions you've been getting ... nice work to the bugzappers12:21
adamwviking_ice: they're all me, using gmail aliases and fake moustaches12:22
jlaskadoesn't matter ... if you can sustain it, rock on ;)12:23
adamwbut no, actually, i think things are moving from qa to bugzappers rather than the other way around - i think some of the new interest is coming via the updated QA wiki pages for e.g.12:23
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adamwfor now we're sort of scrambling to keep up with a process for getting the new people started12:23
jlaskaso the cleaned up QA pages are properly routing folks to sub-teams12:23
adamwso i guess the takeaway might be, make sure we have stuff for new people to do immediately12:24
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viking_iceget them attache to one component and master it ( join upstream mailing lists etc.. )12:24
viking_icethen they can monitor that one to begin with then add on as the experience grows..12:25
jlaskaadamw: good observation ... we're struggling a bit with defining a play area for beaker contributors.  I've got a discussion coming up later on to try and outline some things to hopefully improve that12:25
viking_iceprobably the way I suggest we go with new testers12:25
jlaskawwoods: as for action items for the week ... I only had a few ... unless I missed stuff12:26
jlaska* [jlaska+adamw] - update on semantic packaging12:26
jlaska* [jlaska] - review upstream xorg test suite status (in addition to piglit) ... for use during upcoming Xorg driver specific test day12:26
jlaska* [wwoods] - discuss with f13 + jakub a method for identifying similar gcc4.4 optimization bugs?12:26
jlaskais that accurate ... what did I miss?12:26
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wwoodsjlaska: email fedora-test-list if (when) you identify a known-good rawhide tree?12:28
* jlaska jumps for meeting conflict12:30
adamwi guess i should talk to fcami about maybe doing a radeon test day12:30
adamwsound good?12:30
f13f13 + jlaska to work with anaconda team to identify a rawhide tree for test day12:30
jlaskaooh yes12:30
adamwand intel kms12:30
wwoodsradeon test day, intel test day12:30
adamwthey're on my todo list then12:30
wwoodsoh, and: [all] - review feature pages in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Features_needing_QA_approval12:32
wwoods(esp. features that have had test days, which can probably move straight to Category:QA approved feature pages)12:32
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wwoodsI think that's it, and we're over time12:33
wwoodsany further discussion can go to #fedora-qa. thanks for your time, folks.12:33
--- Log closed Wed Mar 04 12:33:38 2009

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