| --- Log opened Thu Jan 25 11:03:22 2007 | ||
| Lovechild | and one man can only watch so much porn (and HD movie trailers) | 11:03 |
|---|---|---|
| @wwoods | HAH. that's the first line of the meeting log, now | 11:03 |
| Lovechild | anyone from the QA team going to FOSDEM? | 11:04 |
| -!- dmalcolm changed the topic of #fedora-qa to: Fedora QA | Meeting starting now! | <Lovechild> and one man can only watch so much porn (and HD movie trailers) | 11:04 | |
| @wwoods | hee hee! | 11:04 |
| Lovechild | I hate you | 11:04 |
| -!- dmalcolm changed the topic of #fedora-qa to: Fedora QA | Meeting starting now! | 11:04 | |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: but the fluendo codecs all basically work? that's really cool | 11:04 |
| dmalcolm | excellent | 11:05 |
| Lovechild | wwoods: using DECODEBIN2 and GStreamer CVS I can play pretty much every WMV/WMV file including the HD content | 11:05 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: ooh, FOSDEM would have been cool, but it's a month away? I'm not sure I could get permission/budget/cheap tickets | 11:05 |
| -!- leenuxg33k [i=leenuxg3@nat/redhat/x-d61127e197dc1c4e] has joined #fedora-qa | 11:05 | |
| Lovechild | A friend of mine offered to pay the busticket down there so I figured I might go and flash the Fedora love | 11:05 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: oh nice! | 11:06 |
| @wwoods | poelcat: ping | 11:06 |
| poelcat | wwoods: present and accounted for | 11:06 |
| Lovechild | also Development now boots on dmraid and Compiz got fixed.. outside of Evolution which is always broken Development is looking solid from here | 11:06 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: which compiz issue? the only problem I've seen is the window-placement badness | 11:07 |
| @wwoods | well, actually, hold that thought a sec - let's get started with this meeting | 11:07 |
| Lovechild | k | 11:07 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-qa to: Fedora QA | Meeting starting now! | Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Meetings/20070125 | 11:07 | |
| @wwoods | Hello and welcome and all that! The agenda is on the wiki as always (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Meetings/20070125 if you missed the topic) | 11:08 |
| [Users #fedora-qa] | 11:08 | |
| [@wwoods ] [ c4chris__] [ jhutar ] [ mether ] [ Oldma1 ] [ Sonar_Guy] | 11:08 | |
| [ BobJensen-Away] [ dmalcolm ] [ leenuxg33k] [ mspevack ] [ poelcat] [ thl ] | 11:08 | |
| [ bpepple ] [ Foolish ] [ lmacken ] [ mutk ] [ pyxel ] | 11:08 | |
| [ bress ] [ giallu ] [ Lovechild ] [ nman64_away] [ sangu ] | 11:08 | |
| -!- Irssi: #fedora-qa: Total of 22 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 21 normal] | 11:08 | |
| Lovechild | all hail the mighty Will Woods and all that | 11:08 |
| @wwoods | who's actually here? | 11:08 |
| Lovechild | David Nielsen present and accounted for | 11:09 |
| Oldma1 | Roll Call? | 11:09 |
| * lmacken is kind of sort of not really here | 11:09 | |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: do I have your email address? I think I had asked you for a bit about the Love Day stuff (And a convenient excuse to get your email address for future use) | 11:09 |
| Lovechild | wwoods: david@lovesunix.net | 11:10 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: gotcha, thanks | 11:10 |
| Lovechild | yeah I' m behind schedule on that massively | 11:10 |
| @wwoods | Oldma1: sure, mostly I just want to see how many people are actively listening and how many are idle | 11:10 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: s'ok, we got Test1 to worry about right now | 11:10 |
| @wwoods | but Test1 is a good place to start hashing this stuff out | 11:11 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild's obviously testing it, who else has attempted an install or otherwise messed with it? | 11:11 |
| @wwoods | it's frozen now (yaaaay) so what's currently in development will be released on Tuesday as Test1 | 11:12 |
| @wwoods | so we must do our best to make sure there aren't Big Nasty Bugs in it | 11:12 |
| @wwoods | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/7/Test1TreeTesting | 11:12 |
| @wwoods | that's the test matrix | 11:12 |
| @wwoods | that's all the stuff we should test in the next week | 11:12 |
| @wwoods | if anyone doesn't have wiki edit rights, you can talk to me or mether or poelstra to get updates made | 11:13 |
| @wwoods | oh, I should fix the "Current Testing Tree" thing | 11:13 |
| @wwoods | and probably we'll need to add some stuff to the matrix about the LiveCD | 11:13 |
| @wwoods | by the way - the LiveCD is installable now! it's pretty dang cool. | 11:14 |
| Lovechild | is that davidz' doing? | 11:14 |
| @wwoods | yeah davidz + jeremy (katz) | 11:14 |
| dmalcolm | excellent! | 11:14 |
| Lovechild | they are nay as much men as gods | 11:14 |
| @wwoods | verily! | 11:14 |
| dmalcolm | forsooth | 11:14 |
| Lovechild | so who gets to fix Pup? | 11:15 |
| @wwoods | as such we must make offerings of time and sweat unto them | 11:15 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: oh, the comps badness? | 11:15 |
| Lovechild | wwoods: no but it still locks the GUI so it looks like it crashed - you would not believe the amount of shit I get for that one | 11:15 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: hmm, that's just a general pup problem though, isn't it? | 11:15 |
| mether | have anyone started submitting the testing tools to the package review process? | 11:16 |
| @wwoods | the fact that it's not multithreaded or something, so the screen doesn't get redrawn sometimes | 11:16 |
| @wwoods | mether: yep! dmalcolm submitted them yesterday | 11:16 |
| mether | wwoods: yes. its generally that Pirut, Pup etc dont provide enough feedback during esp during dep resolving | 11:16 |
| Lovechild | it's a "developer hates threads and wants to make users suffer because of it" issue | 11:16 |
| @wwoods | mether: we'll talk about that right after test1 | 11:16 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: ha | 11:16 |
| mether | wwoods: how is test1 looking like now | 11:16 |
| dmalcolm | mether: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=224271 | 11:17 |
| @wwoods | from what I've seen it runs pretty well, although I haven't attempted an install since just before the freeze | 11:17 |
| dmalcolm | mether: Bugzilla Bug 224271: Review Request: rhts - A system for developing automated tests | 11:17 |
| mether | dmalcolm: do you really want to call it rhts? | 11:17 |
| mether | I thought we had a name like beaker or something | 11:17 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: you can confirm it's installable on i386? how about x86_64/ppc? | 11:17 |
| Lovechild | Lovechild: x86_64 tested via upgrade from FC6 (slight issues with repo which must not be named) | 11:18 |
| Lovechild | I'll do i386 in the morrow | 11:18 |
| @wwoods | mether: it's kind of complicated, but as I see it, RHTS is the (fairly basic) stuff that Red Hat is providing - the stuff we build on top of it will be called Beaker | 11:19 |
| Lovechild | as well as clean net installs, the dmraid raid now boots which makes testing much easier | 11:19 |
| mether | wwoods: when QA meetings are over, please do send a summary and link to logs to folks in fedora-test list | 11:19 |
| @wwoods | it *could* end up being the case that we replace the rhts stuff inside beaker, and drop the rhts name altogether | 11:19 |
| mether | wwoods: ok. | 11:19 |
| @wwoods | mether: yes, I forgot to do that last week. Mea culpa, won't happen this time | 11:19 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: very cool. Do you have wiki edit rights? | 11:20 |
| Lovechild | wwoods: I don't think so my user is DavidNielsen (how original) | 11:20 |
| mether | how many tests are in beaker now? when do we expect to start running those tests on a regular basis? have we decided which list to send them to? | 11:20 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: oh, can you do a 'yum list extras' after the upgrade and see if there's anything funky there? | 11:21 |
| @wwoods | mether: I'm not sure about the unstable ('sandbox') tests, but there's 2 promoted tests in the upstream repo. | 11:21 |
| @wwoods | mether: I'm hoping we can kickstart the test repo during FUDCon | 11:22 |
| Lovechild | the upgrade is not all that smooth but it's perfectly workable | 11:22 |
| mether | do we plan to start "supporting" test to final releases or F7 to F8 upgrades using yum? | 11:22 |
| Lovechild | that would be madness to officially support that, unofficially it might work.. no? | 11:23 |
| mether | or a upgrade process decoupled from Anaconda but not necessarily directly with yum | 11:23 |
| @wwoods | mether: that's a good question. do you think it's reasonable to bring that to the devs as a requirement? | 11:23 |
| @wwoods | I think test3->final is reasonable to support | 11:24 |
| Lovechild | the test releases aren't stable, nobody installs a test release without applying updates from Development - in effect we'd be supporting upgrade from any point in Development to Final fully tested | 11:24 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: right, which is a dicey proposition | 11:24 |
| Lovechild | test3 might work | 11:24 |
| mether | If the update tool, refuses to put out updates without a proper update path for individual packages and checks to make sure that all dependencies are resolved, we all agree that epochs are not all that evil if it gets the job done | 11:25 |
| mether | then yes i do think | 11:25 |
| @wwoods | test3 is after the feature freeze and a bunch of stabilization, so officially supporting test3->final is reasonable in my book | 11:25 |
| mether | it is very reasonable to support it in a official capacity in most scenarios | 11:25 |
| Lovechild | if people know that the upgrade from test3 to final is supported, there's a bigger chance we can get more people on there to hit more issues - instead of getting a shit storm when final hits and it doesn't boot on half the machines in the world | 11:26 |
| mether | basically yes, once we put out a rpm into the development or stable tree, there should always be a guaranteed update path | 11:26 |
| @wwoods | I agree, but that proposition depends on some things that don't quite exist yet - magic dep checking for the updates tool, for instance | 11:26 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: right | 11:26 |
| @wwoods | and AFAIK there's never been any big problems with Test3->Final upgrades | 11:26 |
| @wwoods | if we are careful about taking note of any potential issues with test3->final, and pass those along to the anaconda folks | 11:27 |
| @wwoods | so if they need special handling, they can do it | 11:27 |
| Lovechild | I've always done rolling upgrades all through Development, it has never been that much of a problem and if we test it heavily it's doable | 11:27 |
| @wwoods | then I think we can officially support test3->final without putting undue strain on anyone | 11:27 |
| Lovechild | I think it's worthwhile, I'd at least give time towards such testing | 11:28 |
| mether | is that feasible from F7 test2 onwards. can we try? | 11:28 |
| @wwoods | mether: try what - officially supporting upgrades from test2->final? | 11:28 |
| mether | do we know how close is Luke is to finishing the new update tools with evr and dep checks ? | 11:28 |
| mether | wwoods: yes | 11:28 |
| Lovechild | in this cycle could we limit it to test3, I think we are already taking on a lot of testing with tools are aren't yet ready and a small team | 11:29 |
| mether | well test2-test3 upgrades should show up problems | 11:29 |
| mether | we can learn and fix | 11:29 |
| mether | yes, that generally is more work but F7 is ambitious release in general | 11:30 |
| @wwoods | yeah, I think we should propose official support for test3->final upgrades, and *possibly* test1->test2 and test2->test3 | 11:30 |
| Lovechild | did the Unity people offer up some preliminary test1 isos for me to throw at my setup? | 11:30 |
| mether | so we are risking failures in some points on not meeting goals which is ok IMO | 11:30 |
| mether | wwoods: if so the test release announcements should state that prominently | 11:31 |
| lmacken | mether: I am going to port the old dep checking code over to the new tool this weekend | 11:31 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: I'm asking f13 about iso sets | 11:31 |
| lmacken | which should be fairly trivial | 11:31 |
| mether | lmacken, rpm evr checks? | 11:31 |
| lmacken | mether: what kind of checks? broken update paths ? | 11:32 |
| mether | lmacken, yes precisely | 11:32 |
| lmacken | mether: i plan on doing that this weekend too. (it's probably a one-liner (rpm.labelCompare or something)) | 11:32 |
| mether | lmacken, the update should just refuse to put out updates like that in all branches | 11:32 |
| mether | including the development tree | 11:32 |
| mether | great. when do we expect the new update system to be in action? | 11:33 |
| lmacken | mether: that would require the updates system access to the development tree? | 11:33 |
| mether | lmacken, yes. is that a problem? | 11:33 |
| lmacken | hopefully soon! | 11:33 |
| -!- f13 [i=jkeating@fedora/ender] has joined #fedora-qa | 11:33 | |
| lmacken | mether: not really a problem. I'm sure we'll figure something out | 11:34 |
| mether | cool | 11:34 |
| @wwoods | f13: howdy | 11:34 |
| f13 | hi all | 11:34 |
| Lovechild | all hail the mighty Jesse Keating | 11:34 |
| mether | f13: Hello. how many images would the default installation of desktop spin for test1 be | 11:34 |
| f13 | i386:3 x86_64/ppc: 4 | 11:34 |
| f13 | unless something durastically changes. | 11:35 |
| mether | f13: Would it be possible to cut it down to 2 for the default on all arches (just for the defaults) ? | 11:35 |
| f13 | oh wait, the default install | 11:36 |
| Lovechild | 4 cds for a desktop system seems excessive | 11:36 |
| f13 | sorry, I haven't actually tried the default install with CD isos | 11:36 |
| f13 | the whole spin is 3 CDs | 11:36 |
| f13 | Lovechild: tell the world to get rid of more languages. | 11:36 |
| f13 | Lovechild: seriously, oo.org+languages is 1.5CDs alone | 11:36 |
| Lovechild | f13: I'll start with my own | 11:36 |
| Lovechild | I hate OOo | 11:37 |
| mether | f13: Would it be reasonable to 2 CD's as a goal for the defaults? | 11:37 |
| f13 | mether: once I get a spin that actually has the right content, I'll burn isos and see how many it takes to install. | 11:37 |
| f13 | mether: personally, I don't really want to play that game right now. | 11:37 |
| mether | f13: ok. Its not really a game as much as getting more people to try out things easily | 11:37 |
| @wwoods | mether: well, the liveCD should help with some of that | 11:38 |
| mether | wwoods: true | 11:38 |
| f13 | mether: thats why there is a LiveCD | 11:38 |
| f13 | you can't just say "You only need the first 2 CDs" as that only works for English | 11:38 |
| f13 | if you're !English, you're going ot need those lang packs, which will be on other CDs | 11:38 |
| mether | well there is a reason why I explicitly mention defaults | 11:38 |
| f13 | mether: default for whom? | 11:39 |
| @wwoods | f13: oh hey, syncing out the liveCDs should also be way quicker - are you building those too, or is that all jeremy? | 11:39 |
| mether | default in comps.xml | 11:39 |
| f13 | default changes depending on what language you are, what arch you're running, etc.. | 11:39 |
| f13 | wwoods: jeremy has graciously taken on composing the LiveCD set for this release. | 11:39 |
| Lovechild | f13: when can we expect test1 test iso ? | 11:39 |
| mether | English as default then | 11:39 |
| f13 | Lovechild: I hope to have some RC isos out later today somewhere, with unsigned packages. | 11:39 |
| f13 | need to have the final test1 isos ready by sometime on Friday for a Tuesday release | 11:40 |
| f13 | our IS needs a bit of time to stage, and mirrors need time to sync | 11:40 |
| mether | David Zeuthen was talking about integrating live cd's into the development process and even have live cd respins post release on a regular basis | 11:40 |
| Lovechild | f13: as a special favor to me, if hal detects a Plextor drive can you offer me a button to stab the Plextor CEO in the face? | 11:40 |
| mether | Lovechild: i can see you are very passionate | 11:41 |
| Lovechild | once again burning died because of their proprietary extensions | 11:41 |
| @wwoods | f13: so here's the funky bit - installer testing should happen *before* the release, but we need trees/iso sets to test with | 11:41 |
| f13 | mether: I haven't integrated the liveCD creator into pungi, so not this time around. | 11:41 |
| mether | before F7 GA? | 11:41 |
| f13 | wwoods: hey guess what, people can compose at home! (: | 11:41 |
| f13 | mether: more than likely | 11:41 |
| @wwoods | f13: ooooh hey, good point | 11:41 |
| Lovechild | mether: when I pay 3 times the price of a cheap dvd burner that claims to have perfect Linux support and I see nothing but pain for it.. I get passionate | 11:42 |
| f13 | mether: right now things are an odd mix of distill, extras push tools, pungi, and livecd-creator | 11:42 |
| @wwoods | f13: can you give me (or us) some really quick instructions on how to compose media from rawhide? | 11:42 |
| f13 | wwoods: I started a page on how to use pungi in mock, I'm going to post up the config files I'm using once I'm happy with the content we're getting (should know very shortly) | 11:42 |
| * wwoods hoping the answer is: "I already wrote them up, they're here on the wiki, haven't you seen them already you dumbass?" | 11:42 | |
| -!- pyxel [n=pyxel@147.175.55.175] has quit ["can be the farce with you, old man !"] | 11:42 | |
| mether | f13: I was expecting to have a bit of a mess and churn due to the core+extras merge | 11:42 |
| @wwoods | f13: ossum | 11:42 |
| f13 | wwoods: I've been doing some hopefully good documentation of pungi as I go. | 11:42 |
| mether | f13: whats the status on brew? | 11:43 |
| f13 | mether: once we merge, and start looking at how we create rawhide nad such differently, then we can start doing automated liveCD type stuff. | 11:43 |
| f13 | mether: should have legal resolved today, as you heard in the board meeting yesterday | 11:43 |
| mether | f13: that would very very cool | 11:43 |
| mether | f13: I missed out some details in the last board meetings. I was a bit late | 11:43 |
| mether | f13: and there was other important things of higher priority to discuss | 11:44 |
| f13 | mether: sure. | 11:44 |
| f13 | wwoods: https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/pungi/wiki/PungiDocs is the start of docs | 11:45 |
| -!- Bob-Laptop [n=Robert@fedora/pdpc.sustaining.BobJensen] has joined #Fedora-QA | 11:45 | |
| mether | f13: why does number of CD's change so much between arch's? | 11:45 |
| f13 | https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/pungi/wiki/PungiDocs/RunningPungi and https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/pungi/wiki/PungiDocs/RunningPungiInMock is where more meat will show up | 11:45 |
| f13 | mether: because x86_64/ppc composes are multilib. | 11:45 |
| @wwoods | f13: beautiful. So I guess our plan for testing the test-releases will be: after freeze, it's up to us testers to build iso sets and install from them | 11:45 |
| f13 | mether: x86_64 includes a variety of i386 packages, ppc includes ppc64 packages. | 11:45 |
| @wwoods | since (in theory) we're building by the same process as the official one, the test results should be fine either way | 11:46 |
| f13 | wwoods: right | 11:46 |
| f13 | wwoods: I'll be spinning locally, and probably at the same time, spinning in phoenix where the world can get to it. | 11:46 |
| mether | f13: is what Jonathan Corbet pointed out fedora-test list a RPM multilib bug? It seems strange to have a default behavior like that | 11:46 |
| f13 | mether: you're going to have to be more specific. | 11:47 |
| Lovechild | multilib makes kittens cry | 11:47 |
| mether | f13: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2007-January/msg00263.html | 11:48 |
| Lovechild | I think that would be the multiple packages owning the same files issue right? | 11:48 |
| f13 | yes, there are some multilib rpm bugs. Yes we'd like to fix them. No we haven't yet hired anybody to help Paul Nasrat with rpm AFAIK, and unfortunately Paul has been very busy with RHEL5 issues. | 11:48 |
| @wwoods | was that the 'fighting the i386 plague' thread? | 11:48 |
| mether | wwoods: yes | 11:48 |
| @wwoods | installing both arches by default is the intended behavior, as I understand it | 11:48 |
| @wwoods | it seems odd but it makes multilib Just Work, which is what people want | 11:49 |
| f13 | mether: I still need to actually verify that scenario, it could actually be a yum bug. | 11:49 |
| @wwoods | so following the principal of least surprise.. | 11:49 |
| mether | wwoods: well, saying we install both arches by default doesnt actually answer that question if you read the discussion | 11:49 |
| f13 | install both by default yes, however if replacing an obsoleted package, and only obsoleted.x86_64 was installed, new.i386 shouldn't also be installed IIRC | 11:49 |
| @wwoods | multilib makes my soul hurt | 11:50 |
| f13 | obso.x86_64 -> new.i386 + new.x86_64 sounds like a bug, but I want to talk with Jeremy and Seth more about it. | 11:50 |
| f13 | might just need a fine tune of the depsolving logic in yum | 11:50 |
| f13 | and yes, multilib makes baby jesus cry | 11:50 |
| @wwoods | f13: do you think it's reasonable to officially support test3->final upgrades? | 11:50 |
| f13 | wwoods: *shrug* I question reasonablness of ANY upgrades. | 11:51 |
| @wwoods | (probably with a "there may be some manual work involved but it *will* work" caveat) | 11:51 |
| Lovechild | I have yet to have one person say "Multilib is great.. I love you guys for forcing it upon me" | 11:51 |
| f13 | that said, I could see just a policy of ensuring nvr upgrade paths from test3 on | 11:51 |
| @wwoods | so what you're saying is that it's no more risky than any other upgrade? heh | 11:51 |
| f13 | other than that... um... | 11:51 |
| @wwoods | f13: right, lmacken was saying that the new updates tool was going to help enforce nvr sanity | 11:52 |
| f13 | see, Anaconda has black magic in it for doing upgrades, to take you from one state to the next. ALl that magic expects the state to be N-1, not Ntest3 | 11:52 |
| f13 | so, while nvr sanity can be enforced, that doesn't help the black magic stuff. It _should_ mostly work, but I'm not laying bets down. | 11:53 |
| @wwoods | so maybe this is something I should discuss with jeremy et. al. as well? | 11:53 |
| f13 | well, the answer your'e going to get is " there is only so much time in a release. We can concentrate on making foo -> bar work, but most likely not foo+test3 -> bar, or just test3 -> bar" | 11:53 |
| mether | maybe we shouldnt have such black magic and make such assumptions? | 11:53 |
| f13 | mether: then we'll never be able to make significant changes between releases. | 11:53 |
| f13 | things that need an non-root filesystem | 11:54 |
| mether | f13: It is possible to have a separate upgrade tool do some changes if necessary | 11:54 |
| f13 | we turn into Debian, sitting on kernel 2.6 until after 2.8 is released | 11:54 |
| @wwoods | there are unavoidable weirdnesses that must happen for major upgrades, but doing test3->final should be a minor upgrade .. it's after feature-freeze, if memory serves | 11:54 |
| f13 | wwoods: yes. | 11:54 |
| mether | f13: Umm. That has nothing to do with enabling a proper upgrade | 11:54 |
| f13 | wwoods: I think the best we can do is enforce nvr paths, after that its.... *shrug* | 11:55 |
| @wwoods | but anaconda is designed to do major upgrades | 11:55 |
| @wwoods | so it doesn't necessarily know what the Right Thing To Do is for a minor one.. hmm | 11:55 |
| f13 | mether: anaconda "black magic" is necessary to take a 2.4 userland and translate it into a 2.6 userland, staticdev to udev, lvm to lvm2, etc... | 11:55 |
| Lovechild | sounds like platform upgrades is best handled by a specific little tool, I see a lot of requests to support yum updates from say FC6 to F7 without the need to download a DVD image | 11:55 |
| mether | wwoods: 2.4 to 2.6 live upgrade does work on debian using apt-get | 11:56 |
| f13 | mether: they're not doing some of the other changes. | 11:56 |
| Lovechild | wait.. debian has releases? | 11:56 |
| mether | f13: we cant do a lvm1 to lvm2 conversion on the fly and thats beyond the scope of yum but those kind of changes are few and far between | 11:56 |
| mether | those changes can be encapsulated in a separate upgrade tool hooked into pup and puplet | 11:57 |
| f13 | mether: yes, but those are the types of changes that require blackmagic, and require us to have the freedom to MAKE such changes between releases. | 11:57 |
| f13 | those changes require you to reboot and do operations with your root file system offline. | 11:57 |
| Lovechild | mether: one wonders how much work such a tool would be to write vs. the benefits | 11:57 |
| f13 | indeed | 11:57 |
| mether | Do folks realize that Ubuntu is trying | 11:58 |
| f13 | because that tool _is_ anaconda | 11:58 |
| @wwoods | it seems like you could probably chain together yumdownloader with the pxeboot vmlinuz/initrd | 11:58 |
| @wwoods | so you fetch all the packages to update, grab the boot images | 11:58 |
| f13 | wwoods: use boot.iso, point to the remote repo, you'll only download the newer packages, and still get the black magic. | 11:58 |
| mether | can I call anaconda from pup/puplet? | 11:58 |
| Lovechild | mether: yes and they are also moving towards making them able to convert a Windows desktop to a Linux desktop, files intact and all.. very cool | 11:58 |
| @wwoods | f13: right, it would be cool if the downloading happened before you booted into anaconda | 11:58 |
| f13 | wwoods: local mirror... la la la | 11:59 |
| mether | Lovechild: there is no reason for us to be not even trying | 11:59 |
| @wwoods | f13: hah | 11:59 |
| mether | Lovechild: its better than the pain of supporting a release for many many years | 11:59 |
| mether | it encourages more folks to upgrade | 11:59 |
| f13 | uh... Fedora doesn't do that | 11:59 |
| Lovechild | mether: I never said it wasn't.. I just implied that we might want to poke them for cooperation - a lot of the pieces would be common | 11:59 |
| @wwoods | well, we'll need a lot more discussion about this stuff, but I don't know if it's gonna happen for F7 | 11:59 |
| mether | Lovechild: the pieces are easily separated, yes people are looking into that already | 12:00 |
| Lovechild | mether: you just made my day | 12:00 |
| @wwoods | obviously it bears talking to the anaconda folks about how hard it is to support test3->final | 12:00 |
| mether | Lovechild: its also the reason why I harped on ntfs stuff being integrated into the release | 12:00 |
| @wwoods | but I think we're off on a tangent here and I'd like to get back to the agenda (and RHTS) | 12:00 |
| Lovechild | mether: yes and now that legal allows it there shouldn't be a problem.. yay for legal | 12:00 |
| mether | Lovechild: not quite but thats a different discussion | 12:01 |
| f13 | wwoods: so, I think the nvr enforcement is the easily doable part | 12:01 |
| @wwoods | f13: right, given that test3 is post-feature-freeze there shouldn't be any black magic | 12:01 |
| f13 | of course, some will say we should do it for ALL of development nad never break NVRs, but.... | 12:01 |
| mether | f13: did PC agree on using epochs if necessary? | 12:02 |
| Lovechild | f13: one step at the time | 12:02 |
| f13 | mether: that went down a scary path of doom | 12:02 |
| mether | as in there is no hope? | 12:02 |
| mether | we just need to have that discussion anyhow | 12:02 |
| f13 | I had no hope of that particular thead | 12:02 |
| f13 | thread | 12:02 |
| @wwoods | I'd be happy with test3->final for F7. we can revisit the topic some other time. | 12:03 |
| f13 | but perhaps a "use epoch only as a last resort" would probably pass | 12:03 |
| mether | f13: what is a last resort needs guidelines | 12:03 |
| mether | its a key to ensuring smoother upgrades | 12:04 |
| f13 | "When there is no other way to make the upgrade path work, force it with an epoch" | 12:04 |
| f13 | pretty simple. | 12:04 |
| mether | well that discussion in packaging list didnt give me that impression | 12:04 |
| f13 | I'm FAR more interested in developming tools to help migrade user settings or homedirs and seeing more fresh installs. | 12:04 |
| mether | it seems there is a lot of contention about the usage of epochs and when it is advisable or even acceptable to do so | 12:04 |
| @wwoods | yeah, something that magically saved all your Stuff and did a fresh install would be rad | 12:05 |
| f13 | upgrades are just a poor experience. YOu don't get the new themes, you don't get the new settings, you don't get to pick new packages, etc... | 12:05 |
| f13 | mether: welcome to the packaging commitee. | 12:05 |
| Bob-Laptop | I agree f13 | 12:05 |
| mether | f13: well thats the whole point. I want to retain the same things while getting a refresh of my existing packages | 12:05 |
| f13 | packaging is so completely freeform it is extremely difficult to get folks to agree upon a best practice. | 12:05 |
| mether | If i want the world to change on every upgrade I might as well as do a fresh installation | 12:06 |
| Lovechild | what that one one reason to merger core/extras? | 12:06 |
| f13 | mether: so then why are you doing an upgrade at all? | 12:06 |
| f13 | mether: we're still giving you updates to your rleease | 12:06 |
| f13 | release | 12:06 |
| mether | f13: because my current release is EOL'ed? | 12:06 |
| f13 | so new stuff every 13 months is too soon for you? | 12:06 |
| mether | because I want new features only available in the next release | 12:06 |
| Lovechild | aren't we getting close to the top of the our? | 12:06 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: yeah | 12:06 |
| f13 | mether: but you might not GET those new features via an upgrade | 12:07 |
| f13 | if you didn't have compiz before, you won't have compiz after the install. | 12:07 |
| f13 | s/install/upgrade/ | 12:07 |
| @wwoods | mether, f13: I think the upgrade discussion is beyond the scope of testing, at this point | 12:07 |
| f13 | wwoods: agreed, sorry for taking over there a bit :? | 12:07 |
| Lovechild | f13: world domination all in due time my friend | 12:07 |
| @wwoods | s'ok, mostly I just want to talk about exciting RHTS stuff (and go get lunch) | 12:07 |
| @wwoods | heh | 12:07 |
| @wwoods | the upgrade discussion is a really important one | 12:08 |
| @wwoods | but.. some other time | 12:08 |
| mether | fine by me. carry on. I thought I wanted to clear up our stand point before t1. | 12:08 |
| @wwoods | as far as I can see, Upgrades are going to stay as they are for F7, but we are going to make a concerted effort to keep nvr sanity between test3 and final | 12:09 |
| mether | ok | 12:09 |
| @wwoods | which should allow us to support upgrades | 12:09 |
| f13 | mether: seriously, this isn't the release to be making those sort of changes. We have enough break the world view type of changes going on. | 12:09 |
| @wwoods | which should thus get us a *lot* more testing for test3. | 12:09 |
| @wwoods | keep in mind that it's not critical, as we already have the liveCDs | 12:09 |
| f13 | wwoods: this also assumes that we KNOW all the black magic necessary for moving you from N to N+1 by the test3 anaconda. | 12:09 |
| @wwoods | and those give us a much wider testing audience | 12:10 |
| f13 | wwoods: whereas we may need more, which would be added after test3, but if you've done the test3 upgrade, you may already be boned. | 12:10 |
| f13 | so, Null -> Test3 -> Final probably OK. Previous release -> Upgrade to Test3 -> Final there be dragons here | 12:10 |
| @wwoods | f13: right - so, make an effort for nvr sanity and we will discuss the Arcane Magics with anaconda-team types | 12:10 |
| Lovechild | speaking of updates, what was the final outcome of the debate concerning enabling anaconda to get updates during the install? | 12:11 |
| f13 | Lovechild: very difficult design issue around iso media and yum/rpm that prevents it for any iso based install | 12:11 |
| Lovechild | damn | 12:11 |
| f13 | Lovechild: non-iso based installs (ftp/http/nfs tree) should work fine, now that we've fixed the yum comparison bugs | 12:11 |
| @wwoods | hmm, that's going to be something else we'll need to test, then | 12:12 |
| f13 | Lovechild: I'll be happy to talk to you more about it after the meeting. | 12:12 |
| @wwoods | okay so: RHTS stuff! | 12:12 |
| Lovechild | f13: well I'm fine with that answer really I just wanted to know if that was the plan | 12:12 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-qa to: Fedora QA | Meeting in progress - RHTS discussion | Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Meetings/20070125 | 12:12 | |
| @wwoods | f13 set us up with a trac instance for beaker (https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/beaker) | 12:13 |
| @wwoods | that's where we'll be storing docs, tests, and tools that we build on top of RHTS | 12:13 |
| @wwoods | RHTS itself is the basic tools from Red Hat, those come from https://testing.108.redhat.com/ | 12:14 |
| @wwoods | dmalcolm has submitted the package for inclusion in Extras | 12:14 |
| dmalcolm | as https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=224271 | 12:14 |
| @wwoods | furthermore we have a xen host at http://qa.fedoraproject.org/ | 12:14 |
| f13 | we will be renaming it right? | 12:14 |
| f13 | "Red Hat" in a package name is probably going to be not so cool | 12:14 |
| @wwoods | (big thanks to mmcgrath for setting that up) | 12:14 |
| dmalcolm | f13: what does RPM stand for? | 12:15 |
| f13 | dmalcolm: RPM Package Manager | 12:15 |
| Lovechild | f13: you are right Fedora tends to take a beating for being the RHEL alpha everything we have a package called redhat something or another - it's a PR problem mostly | 12:15 |
| @wwoods | RHTS Hybrid Test Suite | 12:15 |
| dmalcolm | IIRC I never spelled out the acronym | 12:15 |
| f13 | Rad Hybrid TEst Suite... (: | 12:16 |
| @wwoods | heh! | 12:16 |
| Lovechild | much yay! | 12:16 |
| @wwoods | Really Hoopy Test Suite | 12:16 |
| @wwoods | and/or System | 12:16 |
| f13 | dmalcolm: sure, I was just pointing out past history, redhat-config -> system-config | 12:16 |
| @wwoods | anyway, the rhts packages kind of give us a basic setup - dev tools, test runners, templates, etc. | 12:17 |
| @wwoods | we'll build stuff on top of that base, and that will be beaker.. conceptually, it's kind of like rpm -> yum | 12:17 |
| f13 | anaconda-runtime -> pungi (: | 12:18 |
| dmalcolm | heh | 12:18 |
| Lovechild | Ben -> Jerry's | 12:18 |
| Lovechild | okay so how far down the RHTS road are we? | 12:19 |
| @wwoods | so anyway. I think poelcat is going to be migrating the current tests from testing.108 into the hg repo at hosted.fp.o | 12:19 |
| Lovechild | I mean can we unleash terror on a grand scale any time soon? | 12:19 |
| @wwoods | and that's where we'll start putting new tests that we write specifically for fedora | 12:19 |
| @wwoods | I'm going to be trying my hand at using the current tools to write a few tests over the next week | 12:19 |
| @wwoods | and putting together some docs on how one grabs the tools, sets up the environment, writes a test or three, packages those tests, submits them for inclusion in beaker, etc | 12:20 |
| dmalcolm | with the rhts-devel package you can run a test, and then turn it into an RPM thast can easily be installed on a test host | 12:20 |
| @wwoods | and hopefully that's what we'll be doing during FUDCon | 12:20 |
| @wwoods | writing tests and running them against F7t1 | 12:20 |
| dmalcolm | I hope to create a web UI for scheduling test runs on rawhide etc | 12:21 |
| @wwoods | or just screwing around with Test1 | 12:21 |
| Lovechild | wow that soon, I'm stunned | 12:21 |
| @wwoods | Lovechild: honestly, writing a test is pretty dang easy | 12:21 |
| @wwoods | with a few good examples it should be pretty easy to build up a nice library of tests | 12:21 |
| Lovechild | wwoods: if a moron or a slightly trained monkey can do it I'll have a go | 12:21 |
| @wwoods | and then, as dmalcolm mentions, we start building tools to grab and run tests | 12:22 |
| @wwoods | so, for example, the updates tool can signal the test lab, like | 12:22 |
| @wwoods | "hello! there's a new httpd package available. run all the httpd tests you've got." | 12:22 |
| @wwoods | and it'll do so, and report the results | 12:22 |
| Lovechild | a puplet for testing, sounds like run | 12:23 |
| @wwoods | hmm, I hadn't considered that idea - a signal to the actual testers from the updates-tool | 12:23 |
| @wwoods | that's kind of cool. heh. "hey! test out this package!" | 12:23 |
| Lovechild | it would aid in test coverage | 12:23 |
| Lovechild | would be great for the updates-testing repos | 12:24 |
| -!- Oldma1 [n=Oldman@ip68-6-209-67.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #fedora-qa [] | 12:24 | |
| @wwoods | anyway RHTS is the focus for now - we'll talk about updates-testing more once F7 is calmer | 12:24 |
| @wwoods | once it's out, we'll need to focus on updates-testing anyway | 12:24 |
| f13 | once the post fudcon valium kicks in... | 12:24 |
| @wwoods | (not that we can ignore it now, but there's bigger, scarier things going on) | 12:25 |
| @wwoods | valium kicks in / hangovers wear off | 12:25 |
| Lovechild | not to mention F7 testing is way more prone to go boom in entertaining ways | 12:25 |
| @wwoods | yeah, FC6 is fairly stable these days | 12:25 |
| @wwoods | I don't think we are in desperate need of complete tool overhaul for it right now | 12:26 |
| @wwoods | so yeah, F7 is where the fun is.. but continue keeping an eye on updates-testing, naturally | 12:26 |
| @wwoods | so yeah, quick recap of actions: i'm supposed to be writing some example tests and docs | 12:27 |
| Lovechild | I'd personally stopped testing FC6 to move to F7 - I don't have enough machines or time to do testing on both currently | 12:27 |
| @wwoods | poelstra will be setting up the source repo for beaker (tests and new tools) | 12:27 |
| @wwoods | dmalcolm's at work getting the current rhts tools into Extras | 12:27 |
| Lovechild | anyways, the family is moaning things like make dinner or suffer.. I'll have to jet | 12:27 |
| @wwoods | FUDCon will be test-writin' time | 12:27 |
| @wwoods | and.. yeah, 90 minutes are up, and I need some lunch | 12:28 |
| @wwoods | any last thoughts? | 12:28 |
| dmalcolm | (i) status of when fedora-qa mailing list (ii) when will next IRC meeting be? | 12:28 |
| @wwoods | dmalcolm: ah! thanks | 12:28 |
| @wwoods | The discussion about fedora-qa mailing list got bogged down in discussions about whether to keep the -list suffix and/or fedora- prefixes | 12:29 |
| @wwoods | I might just go to IS/IT myself and get fedora-qa created - I don't really care for the -list suffix but if someone can give me a reason to keep it, I"m all ears | 12:29 |
| @wwoods | as for the next meeting.. same time, same day of the week (unless anyone objects)? | 12:30 |
| dmalcolm | thanks | 12:30 |
| @wwoods | I think the meeting after FUDCon we can do 0100UTC to accomodate the other half of the world | 12:30 |
| @wwoods | or.. third | 12:30 |
| @wwoods | or something. | 12:30 |
| Bob-Laptop | I will be on my way to boston this time next week | 12:30 |
| @wwoods | Bob-Laptop: hmm. maybe we should do the meeting during FUDCon then? | 12:31 |
| @wwoods | or before it? | 12:31 |
| * f13 gets lunch | 12:31 | |
| -!- f13 [i=jkeating@fedora/ender] has left #fedora-qa [] | 12:31 | |
| Bob-Laptop | wwoods: I know a lot of us are traveling on thursday, I would think a special meeting on saturday would be the bomb | 12:31 |
| @wwoods | wait, hell yeah, an in-person meeting (for those lucky enough to be at FUDCon) would be great | 12:32 |
| Bob-Laptop | wwoods: then we can fill in the others that are not there with what we are doing and maybe get some colab going | 12:32 |
| @wwoods | but we have to discuss on IRC as well, which gets tricky for those out of the room | 12:32 |
| @wwoods | how about we'll say it'll be Saturday, time TBD for now | 12:33 |
| Bob-Laptop | +1 | 12:33 |
| Bob-Laptop | Sorry I was late BTW | 12:33 |
| @wwoods | I guess we can just pick a time but I need to figure out what's going on Sat. first | 12:33 |
| @wwoods | so yeah, I'll do that ASAP | 12:33 |
| @wwoods | Bob-Laptop: no big deal.. I'll put up the log in a few minutes | 12:34 |
| @wwoods | okay, I'm declaring this meeting officially done | 12:34 |
| @wwoods | imma grab some lunch and post notes on the wiki, but I'll still be around to talk after that | 12:34 |
| --- Log closed Thu Jan 25 12:35:19 2007 | ||
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