--- Log opened Thu Feb 15 11:01:55 2007
wwoodslooks like we'll need 5 minutes for people to wake up11:02
wwoodsLovechild: what's been going on?11:02
Lovechildwwoods: busy filing bugs against Development, very very broken11:03
Lovechildalso thinking of a way to bribe developers to actually run with SELinux enabled11:03
wwoodswhat kind of stuff? have you been blocking FC7Target/FC7Blocker?11:03
Lovechildwwoods: mostly it seems to be stuff related to the fact that a11y is now enabled by default and that just uncovered every bug under the sun..11:04
wwoodshah, yeah.. I think that's why they're enabling it by default11:04
wwoodsforcing people to use it (like with SELinux) is the best way to weed out bugs11:05
wwoodsokay, well, the 5 minute grace period is over11:05
Lovechildwow.. I'm impressed11:05
Lovechildso lay it on me boss11:06
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wwoodsokay, so FUDCon was cool - a lot more discussion than actual hacking, but the discussions were more worthwhile11:06
wwoodsLovechild: do you have a mugshot account? 11:07
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Lovechildwwoods: yeah but mugshot is one of those things that don't work on Development right now11:07
wwoodsLovechild: the SRPM recompiles nice and easy11:07
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* wwoods runs it on his rawhide laptop11:07
Lovechildwwoods: yeah but it doesn't connect to the server from here11:07
wwoodsLovechild: really? huh.11:07
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wwoodsWORKSFORME. might be worth reporting (do they have their own bugzilla?)11:08
Lovechildalso the damn thing doesn't obey the GNOME setting for default browser11:08
wwoodsanyway, one of the things we talked about during FUDCon was new bugzilla stuff 11:08
wwoodsand integration of Mugshot and Bugzilla (which I kept calling Mugzilla by accident)11:08
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wwoodsI set up a test instance of bugzilla at http://qa.fedoraproject.org/bugzilla/11:08
wwoodsmostly as something to bounce tools etc. off of11:09
Lovechildany relation to the extra cool plan of implementing OpenID support in Bugzilla?11:09
Lovechildwow.. now mugzilla connected.. awesomeness11:09
wwoodsI'm told that RH will be eventually moving to bugzilla 3.0 after it's released, so this is a good place to work on integration and extension11:09
wwoodsyeah, the mugzilla stuff is still in discussion11:10
Lovechildany truth to the rumours that we silly pieces of eurotrash might get videos?11:10
wwoodsKarsten was good enough to sum up the discussions we had: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/KarstenWade/Drafts/Mugzilla11:10
Lovechildfrom fudcon I mean11:10
wwoodsLovechild: I've heard rumors, I know there's video, but I don't know who's got it or where they'll put it11:10
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kanaripthe fedora unity project has some videos, i don't know where they are at this moment11:11
wwoodsSadly there isn't video of everything - like the QA talk dmalcolm and I did11:11
Lovechildthey'll probably go on torrent.fedoraproject.org like usual11:11
kanaripthen someone from BU had a camera too11:11
gregdekRaw video11:11
kanaripthanks gregdek11:11
wwoodsbut mostly we just talked about concepts y'all are probably already familiar with - dogtail, RHTS, and how automated testing and new updates tools will make fedora way more awesome11:11
* kanarip certainly likes the automated testing patr11:12
wwoodsas for mugzilla, someone needs to talk to the mugshot guys about how we can create groups for given bugzilla product/version/components11:13
wwoodsit would be pretty sweet if I got a notification every time someone submitted a bug against a package I'm interested in11:13
wwoodsor, say, rawhide bugs11:13
gregdekAre we looking for "someone" to volunteer?  :)11:13
Lovechildit would also be very cool if someone could configure bugzilla so that you could list all open bugs for a given product in one click11:14
wwoodsgregdek: I'd like that, yes, but I'm willing to do it myself11:14
wwoodsLovechild: That's probably pretty easy, actually, just need to craft a link with a query in it11:14
Lovechildwwoods: k I'll investigate, it comes in handy to be able to do that though11:15
wwoodsLovechild: definitely. Gives a very good starting place for bug triagers.11:15
wwoodse.g.: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=Fedora+Core&version=fc7test1&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=MODIFIED11:15
Lovechildso anything else going on at FUDCon that you'd like to rub in my face?11:15
wwoodsthat's a huge link, but it could be crammed into rdr.to (or just an <a href=""> on a web page somewheres)11:16
wwoodsbut you get the idea.11:16
wwoodsanother fudcon discussion topic was the need for a fedora-bug-buddy type of thing11:16
kanaripwell for one thing you didn't have as much fun as i did ;-)11:16
Lovechildit's not for nothing I made Cypress Hill - Hits for the Bong ,my official bugzilla theme song11:16
wwoodswhich would serve two purposes: 1) guided bug reporting (help the user figure out which component/version/etc they want, show them some common bugs, etc)11:17
wwoodsand 2) automatic gathering of appropriate debugging info / tracebacks / logs11:17
Lovechildwould it be possible to guide bug-buddy to file bugs for those products that aren't registered on the GNOME bugzilla (like Evolution.. yay) to our bugzilla so traces don't get lost and users don't explode in anger?11:18
wwoodslmacken talked about that a bit here: http://lewk.org/blog/2007/02/11/fudcon11:18
byteedoes 2) not become hard since we split up -debug packages? and people tend not to want to install them (or might after a crash)11:18
wwoodsLovechild: yeah, actually we want a different program (or perhaps an add-on) that works for everything on a Fedora system11:18
wwoodsbut we want the report to *also* go to the GNOME bugzilla for GNOME bugs11:19
wwoodsrather than "GNOME gets all the GNOME bugs, we get the rest" 11:19
Lovechildalso I was talking to Peter Gordon about how neat it would be if Yum had a "wantsdebug" setting which would automatically fetch and install the debuginfo packages.. I have a rather crude script to do it right now11:19
wwoodsit should be "we get all the bugs, and GNOME also gets copies of the ones that apply to them"11:19
Lovechildman I wish crapzilla could use openID and do bug cloning via xml-rpc11:20
wwoodsLovechild: yeah, we talked about that too - since yum downloading debuginfo packages is a distro-specific activity it doesn't make sense to try to patch gnome's bug-buddy to do that11:20
wwoodsbut our own bug-reporting tool should certainly do it11:20
Lovechildwwoods: I would just like something to put in yum.conf.. like the nice till oneline to murder multilib (die die die)11:20
wwoodsbytee: I'm told it's fairly easy (if the user has an internet connection) to have a button that fetches the debuginfo packages and re-runs the traceback (to get the debugging symbols in there)11:21
LovechildI hate getting a crash and noticing I lack some debug package so I just install all of them...11:21
wwoodsLovechild: hm, there's a couple new tools for managing repos - a "disable multilib" checkbox might be a good feature suggestion for them11:21
byteewwoods: ah, fair enough. 11:22
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wwoodsbytee: obviously, if the user doesn't have an internet connection, that's hard11:22
wwoodsbut then.. if they don't have an internet connection, they can't report bugs either11:22
Lovechildalso will someone please tell Katz that I'll bribe him in doughnuts if he fixes #22797911:22
wwoodsLovechild: I'd love to see the script to fetch debuginfo stuff11:22
byteethough with laptop users, this tool should offer a "save for submitting later" option. after all, lots of people use laptops without the Internet11:23
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wwoodsohhhhh yeah. pup ain't exactly multithreaded. 11:23
wwoodsthat's a hard one. although I hear there's some work going on in pupland, so it might be addressed11:23
wwoodsanyway, the QA Hackfest at FUDCON did not yield any tests, but it did have some positive results11:24
Lovechildwwoods: you have no idea the shit Fedora gets for that in public.. I want it fixed for F7 if at all possible since it accounts for about 60% of all the reports I get11:24
wwoodswe got the dogtail stuff working, with a faked X server and everything, so you can now run automated GUI tests headlessly on remote systems11:24
wwoodsLovechild: are you for real? that's astounding11:25
wwoodsbytee: that's a really good idea, I'll make a note of that11:25
Lovechildwwoods: there are a few reports for mp3/video/wifi but people understand that.. but they bitch so much over our updater11:25
Lovechildit's really a huge bug to users11:26
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wwoodsLovechild: well, there was quite a bit of hacking done on yum during FUDCon - preliminary tests show something like a 30% speed increase during setup 11:26
wwoods(metadata fetching/parsing)11:26
wwoodsso even without any direct work on pup, the pseudo-hang should at least be *shorter*11:27
Lovechilddoesn't fix this one I'm afraid - it really needs to spawn the GUI in a seperate thread and I know Katz hates that11:27
wwoodsLovechild: sounds like someone is volunteering to fix a bug!11:27
wwoodshonestly we (collectively) are going to need more gtk/pygtk expertise11:27
wwoodsbetween a fedora-bug-buddy and pup stuff, and working with dogtail to exercise gtk apps11:28
kanaripworking on it :)11:28
Lovechildwwoods: well.. I guess so, lemme learn python, I'm a C# man so it's a rather strange syntax to my eyes11:28
wwoodsyeah, I'm good with python but lousy with GUI stuff11:28
wwoodsI'm hoping to take next week up with hacking around in bug-buddy and/or putting together a preliminary fedora-bug-buddy11:29
LovechildI fail to see why python is so popular to be honest.. but hey what do I know11:29
kanaripLovechild, join the club ;-)11:29
* dmalcolm holds his mouth shut11:29
Lovechildbut it sounds like fudcon was productive11:29
wwoodsrapid development cycle, large module library, it enforces clean(ish) coding style, and.. at this point, tradition11:30
wwoodssay what you will about python - at least it's not perl. or php. or, lord help up, tcl.11:30
kanaripor java...11:30
kanaripdid i just say that out loud?11:30
Lovechildeverytime will woods mentions perl a kitten buys it11:30
wwoodswell, java has the (theoretical) advantage over C# of being big-F Free, now11:30
wwoodsbut that's a tangent11:31
wwoodsso anyway, FUDCon was very productive in terms of new ideas for better collaboration and laying better groundwork for testing11:31
wwoodsbut we didn't actually write many tests. alas.11:31
* dmalcolm tried writing a yum testsuite but is bogged down in some details11:32
Lovechildwhat is the plan with regards to integrate testing into the Fedora way of life?11:32
wwoodsyes, the yum test suite is pretty exciting, because yum is so critical to us11:32
wwoodsif yum works, anything else can be fixed11:32
Lovechildwell yum, the network, the kernel boots.. a lot of things really11:33
wwoodswell, yes, but assuming all its dependencies work, yum is the critical bit11:33
wwoodsI'd rate the kernel's networking stack more reliable than yum11:33
Lovechildoh that reminds me there was a nice kernel trace when I booted, I should figure out what's going on and bother dave11:33
wwoodsspeaking of traces - another FUDCon idea (this one from pjones and others) was to have bugzilla keep a database of tracebacks11:34
wwoodskernel tracebacks, python tracebacks, etc.11:34
Lovechildoh that would be nice, to compare them and close dups automatically.. like the GNOME crapzilla does11:34
wwoodsLovechild: exactly11:34
wwoodslike that day when we had 100 reports of the same yum traceback11:35
Lovechildwe might even be able to borrow code.. I love it when great features come for free11:35
wwoodsindeed! it's tricky, though, they use mysql and they're fond of using mysql-specific code11:35
wwoodsbut the ideas remain11:35
wwoodsso it's just a matter of porting to Pg11:35
LovechildI'll stay out of that holy war11:35
Lovechildit's like admitting which editor I use11:36
wwoodsyeah, I don't think I really get a say in what RH chooses to use for a database, so I'd prefer just to help the tools become db-agnostic11:36
Lovechildseems sane11:36
wwoodsso anyway - if anyone wants a mugshot account, I've got 5 invites11:36
LovechildI think I have a few as well11:37
wwoodsit would be cool to use mugshot more as a way to collaborate on bug triaging11:37
Lovechilddo we have a QA group?11:37
wwoodswith some help from the mugshot team we could do some really tight integration, I suspect11:37
wwoodsLovechild: not yet, but we should!11:37
Lovechildyes.. Fedora QA - we do bonghits for mankind11:38
wwoodsanyway, that concludes the FUDCon recap11:38
wwoods*this statement valid only in locales where bongs, and the hitting thereof, are not prohibited by law11:38
Lovechildany hope of getting mugshot into Extras?11:38
Lovechildrecompiling it for x86_64 every time they update it gets old11:39
wwoodsLovechild: If memory serves, I don't think their release cycle works the way ours does, so they had been resistant to the idea11:39
wwoodspersonally I'd like to see it11:39
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dmalcolmLovechild: it's under review IIRC11:39
Lovechildsounds good11:40
wwoodsso let's talk Test1 quickly11:40
thlI think they didn't want it in Extras11:40
dmalcolmLovechild: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=21200311:40
thlthey wanted mugshot in a special repo, as they want to be able to push the server and client updates at the same time11:40
thlthey asked FESCo for permission to include it in extras cvs and to use the buildsys, but to push it to some kind of special repo11:41
wwoodsthl: ah, yes, that was it. I knew there was something about their release schedule that was odd11:41
Lovechildseems ugly11:41
thlFESCo granted that, but it got stuck in the review afaics11:41
Lovechildyeah some kind of legal issue.. god bless lawyers11:41
Lovechildso test1.. it's really broken but it boots11:42
wwoodsAnyway, F7t1 - have you all been looking at the tree test matrix? 11:42
wwoodsanything to add? any major complaints?11:42
-!- Topic for #fedora-qa: Fedora QA meeting now! Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Meetings/20070215 | F7t1 test matrix: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/7/Test1TreeTesting11:42
-!- Topic set by wwoods [i=wwoods@nat/redhat/x-f3e97422f7b6e85b] [Thu Feb 15 11:00:39 2007]11:42
wwoodshttp://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/7/Test1TreeTesting <-- matrix, if you didn't already know11:42
kanaripthanks, i was looking for that :)11:43
wwoodswe were a bit rushed this time, but hopefully we should have more time to mess with the tree before freeze and release for Test211:43
wwoodsI'm working hard on some changes for automated installer testing11:43
wwoodsI got jkeating to add some patches to pungi to write out metadata for things that get built11:44
wwoodsI'm going to send some patches to tha anaconda folks later today11:44
Lovechildyou have been a busy bee11:44
wwoodswe're currently in talks with legal about naming for SNAKE11:44
wwoodsSNAKE is the automated kickstart-based install tester I've been working on11:45
wwoodsit uses pykickstart to generate kickstarts (which is cool, because that's what anaconda uses to read them)11:45
wwoodsand some metadata to figure out where the installer images etc. are in a given tree11:46
kanaripwwoods, i've been trying to do the same11:46
wwoodsso then you've got a server that's got a list of trees that it knows about, and client machines can connect to the server11:46
wwoodsand request the kernel/initrd for a given tree11:46
wwoodsand also request a kickstart be generated (based on a bunch of user-defined templates)11:47
wwoodsthe server will pass that stuff on, and then the client reboots into the installer and installs11:47
wwoodsI'm hoping we'll be using it for the installer testing internally for Test211:48
wwoodsand I'm hoping (but can't guarantee) that it should be public by Test311:48
wwoodsthere will still be some manual installer testing needed, of course, but not nearly as much11:49
Lovechildoh and the good news, the testing I did the last time using the fluendo plugins seems to have been succesful. Using GStreamer CVS, DECODEBIN2 and the latest releases of the plugins you can now play HD content on Development, I'd strongly push for including a CVS snapshot of GStreamer soon if a release is not made11:49
wwoodsLovechild: interesting! I'm not sure who owns gstreamer but you might consider adding a bug about it, and blocking FC7Tracker11:50
Lovechildin the old days j5 owned that, but I don't think that is the case anymore11:51
wwoodsso anyway, does anyone know of a major bug that's missing from http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/7/Test1TreeTesting?11:51
wwoodsor does anyone have some test results they'd like reported on there?11:51
wwoodsif not, we'll move on to talking about t2, since it freezes tuesday11:52
wwoodshttp://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/7 has the schedule and featurelist11:52
wwoodsas noted there - any feature that's missing from t2 might be evicted from the release11:53
wwoodsif there's anything there that you're really attached to, make sure that someone is working on it 11:53
wwoodswhen we start getting t2 candidate trees we'll need to test those features out11:54
wwoodsthat reminds me - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/7/BuildingISOs has some instructions on building your own ISO images11:54
wwoodsafter the freeze happens, development/rawhide basically becomes the test2 rc11:55
wwoodsso do your test installs from there11:55
wwoodsif you need isos, make 'em11:55
wwoodsif you need help making isos, come ask me11:55
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Lovechildsounds like a plan11:56
wwoodsif you want to know how to install without isos, it's pretty dang easy. or just use the boot.iso11:56
wwoods(if it's available)11:56
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wwoodsnext up is some test tool discussion - just to recap a couple of previously-mentioned things11:57
wwoodsSNAKE is getting support patches into anaconda/pungi and going through legal11:57
wwoodswe updated some RHTS stuff to allow dogtail tests to run11:57
wwoodsdmalcolm: do you have a link for that stuff handy? 11:58
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wwoodslmacken's work on bodhi (the updater tool) should include a couple of things we've been dying for, like repoclosure checks (to make sure nobody pushes an update that breaks other packages)11:58
Lovechildoh that will be a life saver11:59
dmalcolmwwoods: not sure which bits you're referring to11:59
wwoodsdmalcolm: sorry, I was thinking of the dogtail headless stuff you were hacking on at fudcon11:59
wwoodsis it in the beaker repo or the 108 one?11:59
dmalcolmaha - that was updating dogtail stuff to make it easier to run inside RHTS.   GNOME SVN12:00
wwoods(https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/bodhi is the bodhi site, if you're interested in knowing more)12:00
wwoodsdmalcolm: GNOME svn? gotcha. Is it intended to become part of the dogtail package, or do we need to pull it into beaker with our other testing tools/helpers?12:01
dmalcolmwwoods: if you're referring to dogtail-run-headless, that's already part of dogtail12:01
wwoodsdmalcolm: ah, gotcha12:01
wwoodsso it'll appear in a future dogtail update then. brilliant! thanks for refreshing my enfeebled memory.12:02
wwoodsso it looks like we'll have three places for automated testing to occur:12:02
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wwoods1) post-build sanity checks in koji (the future build system)12:03
wwoods2) pre-push-to-updates-testing sanity checks (repoclosure etc.) in bodhi12:03
wwoods3) post-push-to-updates-testing regression tests using beaker12:04
LovechildI feel these would be famous last words but "that sounds rather foolproof"12:04
wwoodswell, yeah, since very few of the tests are actually written yet12:04
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wwoodsbut I've got the builders of the first two tools agreement on leaving hooks for us to put tests in12:05
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wwoodsso there's plenty of room for us to improve the overall qa process12:05
Lovechildalso upstream for a lot of projects has started doing unit tested and compile tests for each commit.. automated testing in open source seems to be getting an overall lift12:05
yunusozenhow can I download a sourceforge project's maling list archive to read offline12:05
wwoodsLovechild: indeed, that's what we like to hear12:05
wwoodsyunusozen: that's a strange question for this channel. we're kind of having a meeting here12:06
wwoodsyunusozen: so unless you want to talk about fedora qa, you'd probably be better served with a google search12:06
wwoodsLovechild: that's awesome to hear!12:07
Lovechildwwoods: now we just need them to do performance regression testing automatically as well.. but hey any improvement on an already rocking foundation12:08
wwoodsLovechild: performance regressions.. yeah, that's a tough one12:08
wwoodsit's such a fuzzy area12:08
Lovechildyeah well rome wasn't built in a day12:08
wwoodswitness all the comments from gentoo users who claim their system seems "snappier"12:09
Lovechildwwoods: don't remind me.. I used to be one12:09
wwoodswhen the actual performance differences are nearly statistically insignificant12:09
wwoodsLovechild: heh, many of us were.. I think gentoo helped a lot of people learn how you put a linux distribution together12:09
Lovechildit's really great to get them on Fedora though, I know one who's same basic desktop used 200 megs less memory on Fedora..12:10
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Lovechildhis words were "what the hell was I thinking all those years"12:10
Lovechildregardless we have past the hour, any closing words from the wise one?12:11
wwoodswell speaking of performance regressions - what do you know of / recommend for benchmarking stuff?12:11
wwoodsit wouldn't be a bad idea to set up a machine or two do to automated benchmarking12:11
wwoodswe can worry about checking the diffs and stuff after we get the benchmarks working12:12
LovechildI'll investigate for the next meeting12:12
wwoodsLovechild: awesome, I'd appreciate that12:13
Lovechildalso oh wise one, why have we still not got an iCal for the meeting schedule?12:13
wwoodsI've used bonnie and lmbench before12:13
wwoodsoh yeah! I was gonna set that up on google calendar or something12:13
wwoodsI'll do that for the next meeting12:13
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wwoods(which, by the way, we'll have in #fedora-meeting)12:13
Lovechildbut are'nt google like evil and they eat kittens?12:13
wwoodsyeah, it'd be nice if we could just host it on fp.o somewhere, but.. meh. path of least resistance for now12:14
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Lovechildwe really should have a Fedora calendar of holy days to mark all the meetings and such.. Google Calendar doesn't integrate with Evolution AFAIK12:15
wwoodsin this case I take the "first, make it work. THEN you can worry about making it work the way it should"12:15
wwoodsreally? I thought google calendar exported iCal12:15
LovechildMiguel requested someone make Google Calendar working with Evolution in his blog not just a few weeks ago12:15
wwoodsAFAIK you can do it as a read-only calendar12:16
Lovechildso I think that would be an assumption we shouldn't just make12:16
wwoodsjust like any other iCal12:16
wwoodsI'll check that out, though12:16
wwoodsoh, what's your mugshot username/email address?12:16
wwoodsI'm going to make a fedora QA group12:16
Lovechildwwoods: david@lovesunix.net12:17
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Lovechildfeel free to poke me anytime, I don't really have a life12:18
wwoodsso yeah, anyone who wants into the Fedora QA group, feel free to follow it and I'll invite you12:19
Lovechildwell I fill my days finding bugs in Fedora.. I guess my talent for breaking software pays off12:19
wwoodsif you find interesting bugs that need investigation, swarm 'em12:19
wwoodsanything else people wanted to discuss / request / etc?12:20
Lovechildnothing I can think off12:20
Lovechildnext meeting will be next week or 14 days from now?12:20
wwoodsnext week - we'll have just released Test2 12:21
wwoodsit may be a quick meeting though. like: "how's test2? buggy or awesome?"12:21
wwoodserr s/released/frozen/12:21
Lovechildmake: *** No rule to make target `sexy time'.  Stop.12:21
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LovechildI'll go feed my family.. see you next week for another great adventure in software breakage12:22
wwoodsso yeah, it would be totally awesome if you could get some good benchmark tools together for next week12:22
wwoodsmaybe a script to run a bunch of 'em and dump some results12:22
LovechildI'll do my best12:22
wwoodsbut yes, feed the family and I will run for lunch12:22
wwoodsthanks, everyone12:23
--- Log closed Thu Feb 15 12:23:09 2007

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