--- Log opened Wed Nov 14 09:59:53 2007
-!- Topic for #fedora-meeting: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule10:03
-!- Topic set by couf [n=bart@fedora/couf] [Tue Nov 13 15:32:37 2007]10:03
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting (1500UTC)10:03
-!- dwmw2_gone is now known as dwmw2_BOS10:04
wwoodsrdieter, nirik, mether, rmw, Lovechild: ping10:04
-!- spevack_ is now known as spevack10:05
wwoodsand f13 / jeremy / other multi-diciplinary folks: also ping10:05
rdieterhere (kinda sorta)10:05
wwoodsrdieter: cool10:05
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | Schedule changes for F910:05
wwoodsSo yes - I'm writing an email to fedora-test-list about the proposed changes10:05
-!- tibbs [n=tibbs@fedora/tibbs] has joined #fedora-meeting10:05
wwoodsto make sure everyone's aware (there was brief mention of it last month but I still hear references to "test1" etc)10:06
wwoodsIs everyone aware of / cool with the propose changes/schedule?10:06
wwoodsthose are http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/DevelopmentChangesProposal10:06
wwoodsand http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f9/f9-tasks-overview.html10:06
wwoodsthe only thing I've found that I'm still unsure about is that the Alpha release is still two months after Final10:07
f13wwoods: the Alpha was an idea to have /something/ that is known to at least be installable as a jump off point for the development cycle.10:07
f13but we don't care much about other than it installing and getting updates afterward, so we're not doing a blocking freeze for it.  it's just a named snapshot10:08
f13(with a little extra time to make sure it happens)10:08
wwoodslike I said, in the past we've gottin (deserved) bad press for putting out a half-baked release that lacks most of the stuff promised10:08
wwoodsI think calling it "Alpha" and increasing awareness that test releases are just rawhide snapshots is good10:08
wwoodsbut also - sanity check - there's more time for rawhide development now than in previous cycles, right?10:09
f13there is no blocking freeze for test1, that adds a week~ there10:09
wwoodsnow that we're doing the early branching and such the devs actually get some time before F8 final to work on stuff10:09
f13plus add to that the amount of time we early branched and branched during F8 that added a month~10:09
wwoodsyeah, that's reasonable. I do think we're already seeing serious progress in f9 rawhide 10:10
wwoodsa lot moreso than previous ones10:10
wwoodsas long as we believe that to be the intended effect of process changes and not just a happy fluke10:10
rdieterfolks realize they can't wait (me included). :)10:10
wwoodsthen I'm happy relying on that10:10
f13I do want to better deal with a month+ of buildup for that first rawhide build.10:11
f13eventually I want to get to the piont where during teh final freeze, we're composing the release tree to a different location, and letting Rawhide continue on to the next release.10:11
wwoodsmy only other comment about the schedule: I'm gonna be doing family stuff the week of PR1, so I need someone to take the bug-herding hat while I'm gone10:12
wwoodsf13: that would be totally sweet.10:12
f13We'll use mirror manager to do some fun redirects for us to try and capture most people for release testing,  you'd have to opt-out and into Rawhide again to get those bits.10:12
f13wwoods: I don't think we can realistically get there for 9, but maybe !1010:12
wwoodsso we're planning on doing the repo shuffle to pin rawhide to the final release again?10:13
wwoods(I liked that a lot)10:13
f13yes, I liked that too10:13
f13we'll better plan it to avoid zomg no signed packages.10:13
wwoodscan you make sure that gets on the schedule and do an announcement so people know when it's coming10:13
wwoodsyeah, exactly10:14
wwoodsany other comments about the schedule changes? one less test release to test, yay10:14
f13well, if we have a signing server and are automatically signing things with a key, that should take care of itself.10:14
f13they'll at least have /a/ key.10:14
wwoodsrdieter: when is kde4 stuff landing? in time for F9Alpha?10:14
f13wwoods: I'm pretty sure you're going to have one less arch to care about.10:14
f13wwoods: but the tradeoff looks to be one more install method.10:15
rdieterwwoods: we're about 35% there roughly now, should get most of it in by then (cross fingers)10:15
wwoodshere's hopin'10:15
wwoodssome QA-specific stuff to discuss10:15
wwoodsI don't think we're gonna create bugzilla versions for alpha/beta10:15
wwoodsthe reasoning is: Test Releases Are Rawhide Snapshots10:16
f13are we going to remove all the existing ones?10:16
wwoodsso report your dang bugs against 'rawhide'10:16
-!- mizmo [i=duffy@nat/redhat/x-f0982a828406e361] has joined #fedora-meeting10:16
wwoodsI'd like to, yes10:16
wwoodsbut I may be a bit overzealous here10:16
f13I'm on board if we remove the existing ones, otherwise we're just going to get a bunch of misfires.10:16
f13(and people filing bugs about there being no version to file bugs against)10:16
wwoodsI'm amazed at how many bugs we get filed against 'f6test3' still10:17
wwoodsseriously? f6test3?10:17
* wwoods shakes head10:17
* poelcat +1 to removing all the unneeded versions10:18
f13wwoods: actually I think by some twist of fuckness, a brand new bugzilla user creating a new bug for Fedora gets f6test3 as the default version :/10:18
wwoodsf13: I think you're right10:18
wwoodsbut I don't know why10:18
f13wwoods: we really need to make sure that brand new users get the right version, but I don't know how to fix that10:18
wwoodsI'll follow up with dkl about that10:18
wwoodsprobably assume (latest stable) unless their browser tells us otherwise10:19
wwoodsfurther about rawhide: I've proposed changing the 'devel' version to 'rawhide'10:19
wwoodswhich I think is only sensible10:19
poelcatwwoods: are you going to talk to him about removing the extra versions too? I don't mind working with dkl to merge everything10:19
wwoodsbut there's a further proposal which suggests that we name releases at the *start* of the cycle and use that name instead of "rawhide"10:20
f13wwoods: I don't think that should effect bugzilla10:20
wwoodsso we'd call it "werewolf" as a codename up until release, and then the name would change to F810:20
f13wwoods: the only reasonable rational I heard for naming early was so that artwork and such can be made to fit before deadlines.10:20
wwoodsright, it just makes it a little confusing as there'd be no "werewolf" version in bz10:21
rdieterand marketing...10:21
f13we may also use the codename as the pre-release staging directory as well.10:21
wwoodswell, it helps with marketing/branding as well10:21
poelcatbut then you have to keep monkeying with bugzilla10:21
f13but I'm still very much in the 'file it against Rawhide' camp.10:21
poelcatcouldn't the bugzilla start page help this?10:21
poelcator is that project dead?10:21
rdietermaybe use bz label something like f8-werewolf ?  then, no renaming is required.10:22
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wwoodswell, we want to avoid the ambiguity of having "f8" and "f8-werewolf"10:22
wwoodsit's possible we could segment off rawhide this way10:22
-!- Lovechild [n=david@about/unixlove/Lovechild] has joined #fedora-meeting10:22
wwoodshave rawhide (moonshine), rawhide (werewolf), ...10:23
wwoodsbut.. yeah10:23
wwoodspoelcat: bugzilla start page is still a good idea - we even have bugz.fedoraproject.org 10:23
wwoodswhich, while having a silly name, has useful redirects 10:24
wwoodse.g. try http://bugz.fedoraproject.org/yelp10:24
wwoodsso having a front page on that site (rather than having it redirect straight to regular bz) could be useful10:25
Lovechildoh that will come in handy.. still not optimal but way better than what I do currently10:25
wwoodsthat also gives you links to the bodhi/koji/pkgdb pages for that package10:25
wwoodsit's pretty nice10:25
wwoodsanyway I think probably playing silly games with bugzilla versions and rawhide is not the most useful thing10:26
wwoodsmore useful would just be spending more time triaging and recruiting/training more triagers10:26
poelcatwwoods: i'll file a ticket with dkl's group to merge all the versions and change devel to rawhide... posting to fedora-devel first10:26
wwoodspoelcat: awesome, that'd be great. thank you.10:26
* poelcat was also wondering if we should put some bug days on the schedule10:27
poelcatplan them in advance10:27
wwoodsoh sure!10:27
wwoodswhat day of the week would be best?10:28
poelcatwhich would give us incentive to clean up bugzilla, get start page tweaked, and other howto file bugs docs cleaned up10:28
Lovechildsounds way to sane.. everyone knows that frantically crying in the last minute is a far superior plan10:28
wwoodsand who can cover .eu / .au10:28
wwoodsby the way, the F8-thisweek bug link is in the topic for #fedora-qa: http://rdr.to/gc10:28
LovechildI'm .eu citizen, I guess that means I volunteer10:29
rdieterfrantic_crying: +1 :)10:29
wwoods(407 new bugs on F8 this week.. weeeeee)10:29
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | Bug Days10:29
rdieterspin: more users -> more feedback/bugs.  yay10:29
Lovechildyeah could be worse... could be zero bugs10:30
wwoodsa lot of these bugs are simple things - nvidia (CLOSED CANTFIX), stuff on the CommonBugs page10:30
wwoodsbad CD burns, etc10:30
poelcatnot ever friday, but is friday a good day?10:30
wwoodsFriday's OK with me10:30
poelcathow about first one on 30-NOV ?10:30
wwoodsI should do some metrics on bug reporting and figure out whether people do them over the weekend or during the week more10:31
wwoodsI should *also* figure out a way to keep score on bug triaging etc. like GNOME does10:31
f13Since we do snapshot releases on Fridays, do you want to do them on Monday?10:31
wwoodsf13: that's sensible10:32
poelcatthen we smack down the easy stuff right away10:32
f13gives people a chance to pick up the latest snapshot over the weekend and verify10:32
Lovechildf13: that seems like a good idea, give people the weekend to download and burn the snapshot - if they hit bad bugs we are there to triage on mondays10:32
wwoodsyeah, my gut feeling is that bug reporting goes up on the weekends (and triaging goes down)10:33
poelcaton the other hand friday i could pay more attention than on friday10:33
poelcatthan on monday10:33
wwoodsso Monday makes some sense10:33
Lovechildunless you want to dedicate your weekend to Fedora as well :)10:33
poelcatboth sounds interesting, but probably too ambitious10:33
wwoodslet's start with Mondays10:34
wwoodsand if it really starts to pick up steam we can talk about adding Friday10:34
Lovechildmaybe this needs a nice little page telling people to download the snapshot over the weekend and please join us on IRC monday?10:35
wwoodsbug triage is an art, but it can be taught.. we need to create some teaching tools and stuff10:35
* poelcat votes for starting on 19-NOV10:35
lmackenwwoods: bugday!10:35
poelcatwwoods: all we need is wiki pages to start10:35
wwoodspoelcat: indeed10:36
poelcatwwoods: if you can send me the existing page URLs I'll include with my post about changing the versions in bz10:37
Lovechildand a nice call for help on -test10:37
poelcatand announce bug day at the same time10:37
wwoodspoelcat: existing pages for what, triage stuff? there's bugzapper stuff in the wiki10:37
* wwoods sad about that, but making amends10:37
wwoodsLovechild: definitely10:37
poelcatwwoods: whatever makes sense to point people to in order to get started with bug triage... read up in advance10:37
wwoodsokay, quick vote: Bug Days on Mondays, starting 19-nov-200710:37
* wwoods +1, obvy10:38
wwoodsokay, if no one is opposed..?10:38
wwoodsdecided: Bug Days on Mondays, starting 19-nov-200710:39
lmackenI think the coolest part about our last big bug day was that we had incentives/prizes10:39
wwoodspoelcat: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers is a good place to start10:39
wwoodslmacken: which one was that?10:39
Lovechildlmacken: bribing people.. excellent idea10:39
lmackenThe first one I think?  Jack put it on.10:39
lmacken2 years ago10:39
poelcatwwoods: what IRC channel will we hold it in?10:39
wwoodsBut how did you measure performance?10:39
wwoodspoelcat: #fedora-qa, I think10:40
lmackenbz activity :)10:40
lmackenI just pinged jack to try and get more details10:40
lmackenhopefully we can get him on board with it again10:40
wwoodsyeah, I'm curious about how you weight scoring for closing bugs vs. reassigning things to the proper places vs. other triaging stuff10:40
wwoodsI'd love to have an automated system watching that stuff and keeping score10:41
wwoodsonce we get pretty good at keeping score we can start giving prizes10:41
wwoodsbut then you have incentive for people to game the system and blecch10:42
wwoodsanyway, I'd rather have that problem to worry about than the "nobody triages bugs and everything sucks" problem10:42
wwoodsoh, quick diversion10:42
Lovechildwell I suspect it will be easy to just make a decision as to bug zapper of the week manually for the first while10:42
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | fedora-qa-list10:42
wwoodsLovechild: ooh, good point10:42
Lovechildall this statistics crap is likely overkill for the first long time10:43
wwoodsI'm proposing (officially) that we close fedora-qa-list and move qa discussion to -test-list or -devel-list as appropriate10:43
wwoodsthe spam:post ratio for -qa-list is something like 15:110:43
* wwoods filters all the spam. it ain't pretty10:43
lmackenI think we should kill the test update notifications as well.. or at least throw them somewhere other than test-list10:44
poelcatlmacken: +110:44
lmackenI'm planning on teaching bodhi about RSS feeds this week10:44
wwoodsyeah, agreed10:44
Lovechildwe can reopen the list if it's grows or the qa stuff drowns on the other lists?10:44
wwoodsLovechild: absolutely10:44
wwoodsmostly it would just save me some maintenance/admin time10:44
poelcatwwoods: can you simply disable it so it can be brought back if desired?10:44
LovechildI'm some what worried about the trade off in terms of requiring qa people to read high volume lists10:44
wwoodspoelcat: that's a good thought, I'll look into that10:45
wwoodswell, I think qa people should definitely be on -test-list10:45
wwoods-devel-list is optional IMHO10:45
wwoodsif we can get the notifications off -test-list that would be even better10:45
LovechildI'm on both and keeping on top of it all is rather a big task10:45
wwoodsLovechild: agreed10:45
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wwoodsI skim the headers now and then but I generally don't read them in detail10:46
wwoodsFWN is a great help in this regard10:46
LovechildI imagine people with less time to waste than me would be dissuaded from doing QA by it10:46
-!- mefoster [n=mef@dhcp-110-104.inf.ed.ac.uk] has joined #fedora-meeting10:46
f13oh yeah, does anybody think having testing update notifications go to test-list is a good idea?10:46
wwoodsLovechild: do you think it would be reasonable if you were just on -test-list and the automatic notifications were moved?10:47
f13I think we can get them fed oout via rss instead.10:47
lmackenRSS + anonymous feedback in bodhi10:47
wwoodsf13: I think having them go *somewhere* is a good idea, but -test-list isn't the place10:47
poelcatsend them to fedora-qa-list10:47
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wwoodsyeah maybe I'll lock it down so only automated stuff can mail -qa-list10:47
Lovechildthe update messages really should go on -test so people can easily comment on them.. not that they seem to do so.10:48
wwoodsand we can move the notifications there10:48
-!- mefoster [n=mef@dhcp-110-104.inf.ed.ac.uk] has joined #fedora-meeting10:48
Lovechildbut it's probably no worse than asking people to subscribe to a second mailing list.. using -test and -devel does have the upside of having greater visibility10:49
wwoodsyeah, I think the update notifications are just noise10:49
wwoodsesp. if we have anonymous commenting in bodhi10:49
f13yeah, I think the feedback needs to be done in bodhi, not the list10:49
lmackenupdate feedback in bodhi, bugs in bugzilla.. then what is left for test-list?  questions?10:50
wwoodsquestions, discussion, planning10:50
lmackenah gotcha.. yeah, esp if qa-list is going away10:50
LovechildI like -test for early warning, basic bug confirmation10:50
wwoodsthe *useful* stuff that goes on in -test-list these days10:51
wwoodsit's a good place for testers to be like "have you guys seen this?"10:51
wwoodsa future feature for triaging is going to be adding tags to the whiteboard field10:51
wwoodsso we can have an auto-updated page of Current Hot Bugs / Common Dupes / etc10:51
Lovechildalso having a list keeps the social aspect of QA intact which is always nice10:52
wwoodsyeah, the social aspect is important10:52
wwoodsso, yes, we'll keep -test-list as the qa discussion group10:52
LovechildI mean I wouldn't be doing QA if it wasn't fun and wwoods didn't boost my massively inflated ego occasionally10:53
wwoodsmove update notifications to -qa-list or drop entirely?10:53
lmacken+1 for dropping10:53
Lovechildcouldn't they be just an rss feed - seems more like the thing to do, encourage mildly couragous testers to run with updates-testing enabled10:53
wwoodsLovechild: oh, there's no question about the RSS feed10:53
lmackenRSS and `bodhi --testable` / `bodhi -s testing` should suffice10:54
wwoodsmaybe we'll drop the update notifications when we get RSS support in bodhi?10:54
lmackensounds good10:54
lmackenI'm planning to do that hopefully today or tomorrow10:54
lmackenalong with making it public10:54
wwoodsmaking bodhi public? rad. how long 'til anon commenting? or.. actually I guess we don't *need* that immediately10:55
wwoodswhat group(s) do you need to be in to comment in bodhi?10:55
lmackenthere's a TurboGears captcha widget that i'm going to try and use10:55
wwoodsthat'd be a good way of tracking who's in QA10:55
wwoodsah nice10:55
wwoodsyeah, allowing anon commentary would be very good10:56
lmackenand bodhi keeps people in the loop as well.. if you've commented on an update, you'll be notified of all other comments/changes10:56
wwoodsokay, so: shut -qa-list and stop update notifications on -test-list once we have RSS support in bodhi10:56
f13wwoods: sounds like a great Trac ticket set 9:10:56
f13wwoods: we have a rel-eng Trac now, filing a ticket for making those things happen (minus the email list shut down) would be awesome.10:57
wwoodscool, will do10:58
wwoodsOh! crud. I'm out of town next week - grandmother's memorial / thanksgiving10:59
wwoodsso I won't be around Monday for Bug Day10:59
LovechildI'm sure we can cover for you11:00
poelcatwwoods: i'll be around11:00
wwoodsI'll try to pop in if I get some internets but it's not likely11:00
-!- sergiopr [n=sergiopr@halmax.fis.ucm.es] has joined #fedora-meeting11:00
wwoodsokay. anything else?11:00
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | Open Floor11:00
-!- clarkbw [i=clarkbw@nat/redhat/x-c1bbd3281ea4948e] has joined #fedora-meeting11:01
lmackenwe should encourage people to use it! :)11:02
wwoodsOkay then! I'm gonna mail -test-list about development changes and Bug Day, and file a ticket about killing notifications on -test-list11:02
lmackeneasy way to see what you could be testing, and provide useful information to us11:02
wwoodspoelcat was going to talk to dkl about getting rid of Fntestn versions11:03
wwoods(and we're not gonna use 'em in the future)11:03
wwoodsbug days are Mondays, starting Nov. 1911:03
wwoodswe're closing -qa-list11:03
wwoodsI think that's all the decisions we made?11:03
f13wwoods: fwiw I think you need to run your bugzilla changes through FESCo11:04
wwoodsoh, and I guess we're officially endorsing the proposed changes?11:04
wwoodsf13: okay then11:04
poelcati think periodic bug days, but not every monday11:04
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Lovechildindeed.. oh and can we finally get that ics calendar for qa activity?11:04
poelcatLovechild: yes, I can do those in taskjuggler11:04
poelcatbut I need items for the schedule :)11:04
wwoodsI think I had a google calendar at some point11:05
wwoodspoelcat: meetings on Wednesdays at 1500UTC, Bug Days.. let's say every other Monday, for now?11:05
poelcatLovechild: http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f9/f9.ics11:05
poelcatwwoods: i was thinking announce one at a time to create some buzz11:05
wwoodsand then there's things like freezes and snapshot releases11:06
wwoodspoelcat: nice. yeah, let's do that.11:06
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wwoodsOkay then, I don't want to take any more of your time, so.. thanks folks!11:07
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule11:07
--- Log closed Wed Nov 14 11:07:52 2007

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