--- Log opened Wed Nov 28 10:06:03 2007
* wwoods begins the log10:06
wwoodsokay. I don't have a big agenda to get through today10:06
wwoodsI've been working on rewriting the QA pages on the wiki to help people get started in QA10:06
wwoods(unfortunately, no wiki right now, so you'll have to take my word for it)10:07
f13I believe you10:07
rickyI got to it, just really slowly.10:07
wwoodsI've also been talking with Len DiMaggio about QA plans for Fedora - he's got decades of experience in the industry with this stuff so it's good to see what he thinks of our efforts10:08
wwoodsanyway, quick roll call: Lovechild, f13, mether, rdieter, nirik, mkanat: who's here?10:09
mkanatI am.10:09
metherI am10:10
mkanatKind of randomly, really. :-)10:10
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f13wwoods: wonk.10:10
wwoodsLovechild: I finally put links to the Fedora QA schedule on the QA page10:10
wwoods(see near the bottom, under Regular Meetings)10:10
wwoodsin theory we had a Bug Day on Monday the 19th. did that happen?10:11
wwoodsmether: ah well10:11
wwoodsWell. I have another one scheduled for Monday the 3rd10:12
wwoods(it's even on the calendar)10:12
wwoodsI'd like to go through some new F8 bugs, but there's a lot. probably we should choose a couple of subsystems10:12
wwoodssound and kernel, for instance10:12
wwoodsAnyway, I'll post to test-list after this about it10:14
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wwoodsanyone who has a suggestion for things to examine can speak up there10:14
metheris there important bugs filed against Fedora 8 that we should look at?10:15
f13that requires triaging10:16
wwoodsThere's nothing I know of that's not on Bugs/F8Common10:16
f13which is some of the point of bug days10:16
metherIn a number of systems, it seems firstboot doesnt show up but I havent seen any specific bug reports on that for instance10:16
wwoodsbut.. yes, f13's got it10:16
mkanatmether: Yes, I filed the bug that's probably the source of most of that.10:16
methermkanat: great. whats the bug number?10:16
mkanatmether: I'll go find it.10:17
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metherI will add that to the common bugs list10:17
* mkanat wishes bugzilla.redhat.com was new enough that buggbot could query it.10:17
rdieterfwiw, I triaged a whole bunch of kde bugs on the 19th, resulting in closing a  whole slew of ancient bugs, and marking many newer ones NEEDINFO.10:18
mkanatbug 36495110:18
buggbotBug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=364951 high, high, ---, Chris Lumens, ASSIGNED , firstboot doesn't start if network connection fails10:18
metheri have seen atleast a dozen different posts10:19
metherand a few people in my office have hit this bug10:19
mkanatIt's most likely that.10:19
methervery likely10:20
metherironically, I spend more time in this release checking out how yum upgrade works and didnt test Anaconda much10:20
mkanatHeh. :-)10:21
mkanatWell, I have to say, yum upgrade worked really well for me, so... :-D10:21
Lovechildfor what it's worth, here - I just zoned out for a bit10:21
methermkanat: yes. I think it has worked pretty well this release10:21
metherwwoods: there was some discussions in fedora-devel list about testing anaconda10:21
metherwwoods: in the context of the upgrade problems (actually a yum issue)10:22
mkanatmether: Yeah. :-)10:22
wwoodsmether: yeah, I saw that there was a discussion but didn't read it10:22
LovechildI thought SNAKE was going to be our savior on anaconda issues10:22
metherLovechild: it was Kate before. I dont know if SNAKE is any better10:22
metherhas anyone worked with it?10:22
wwoodsunfortunately snake only helps when we have good inputs10:22
wwoodslike package lists10:22
f13really what would help more than anything is getting more and more people to test upgrades during the development cycle.10:23
wwoodsunless we knew in advance what package sets to try, we wouldn't have hit this10:23
* poelcat is here10:23
f13if we had better utilities to say snapshot your system, attempt an upgrade, note failures, restore to old snapshot this would be much more compelling10:23
f13We can do some of that with virt, but...10:24
poelcatmether: we attempted to have a bug day... a few people stopped by10:24
metherI think the release criteria should include testing without a network connection10:24
f13the real value is in testing this stuff on people's day to day machines.10:24
f13mether: feel free to add it.10:24
wwoodsmether: that's reasonable. 10:24
metherpoelcat: yes we *attempted*. It didnt really happen10:24
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methernot blaming anyone. it just didnt10:24
Lovechildf13: that sounds like a compelling idea, some kind of tool to build an image pre update would seem to be a good idea10:24
f13Lovechild: we need such tools anyway, and the ability to restore to said image outside the system (shoudl the system become hosed) from like a rescue kit.10:25
f13Lovechild: the OS X time machine stuff is extremely neat10:25
* wwoods bought a mac mini this week, didn't get Leopard on it (!@%!@##&)10:26
Lovechildf13: could we build it into the rescue cd, it would be a simple boot - the only problem is really restoring the system.10:26
wwoodsthere's vestigial snapshot/rollback support stuff in yum and rpm10:27
f13wwoods: take it back!10:27
Lovechildso what we really need is a filesystem that natively supports that kind of snapshotting such as btrfs10:27
f13wwoods: we want it outside rpm/yum10:27
wwoodsf13: nah, I'll just give 'em $10 and make 'em send me a copy10:27
f13wwoods: it needs to be general purpose so that it catches silly "I just deleted my home directory" stuff.10:27
wwoodsand/or "borrow" a copy in the meantime10:27
wwoodsf13: seriously? that's *our* problem?10:27
f13Lovechild: LVM can easily do snapshots, regardless of file system.10:27
f13wwoods: it's Fedora's problem.10:27
Lovechildf13: that's not silly, that's tragic.. think of all porn10:28
f13wwoods: we seriously need something like time machine, or XP's snapshot system.10:28
metherLovechild: that might take a year or two if we are relying on that specific filesystem. LVM's seems to be a better answer to me10:28
f13Lovechild: there is a Feature for RescueKit, a greatly improved rescue image.10:28
wwoodsyes, it's a need, but it's not a QA problem10:28
f13wwoods: sure, it would just help make QA more compelling if one could reliably recover from a failed attempt10:28
wwoodsoh absolutely10:29
Lovechildmether: lvm is appealing but it's definitely not without it's downfalls either the tools to use it are abominable10:29
metherf13: btw what happened to the idea of dropping the boot.iso and just using rescue iso images for everything?10:29
mkanatEven just doing, "Here's a list of packages installed, and then do this, and then try an upgrade" would probably work.10:29
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metherLovechild: idk. if you understand the concepts, the tools seem fairly logical to me10:30
f13mether: that's in the Anaconda feature pages.10:30
Lovechildalso lvm has some known performance issues on raid setups, cutting my throughput in half thanks to a bolt on solution10:30
metheranyway back to topic10:30
metheris there anything specific to discuss?10:30
f13Lovechild: to be fair, system-config-lvm has improved over time.10:30
wwoodsmkanat: right10:30
Lovechildmether: we are talking about a time machine like things here.. that actual users can operate, lvm is far to complex currently it needs serious sugar10:30
f13bugzilla change is upcoming, I really think somebody needs to make more noise about this.10:30
poelcatf13 noise about what?10:31
wwoodswhich bugzilla change?10:31
metherLovechild: The Apple underlying technologies are similar too. If you think we need better gui's, I wont argue with that10:31
f13wwoods: devel -> rawhide10:32
f13and removing the test releases.10:32
metherLovechild: any idea what was the live cd installation problem linux action show kept cribbing about ?10:32
wwoodsf13: ah. yes.10:32
wwoodsI'll make some noise on test-list10:32
f13mether: Apple also doesn't really give you much of a choice on using a filesystem that their tools wouldn't support.10:32
Lovechildmether: I'm just saying before we have said tools in a shape users can operate and that integrates with the system. No users are realistically using it so defacto we don't have that capability10:32
f13mether: We have far too many choices that makes trying to create easy to use tools a nightmare as they would only work part of the time.10:32
metherf13: I suggested long back to drop the rest of the filesystems we kind of allow10:33
wwoodsf13: they used to let you install to UFS10:34
Lovechildmether: They didn't give enough information to actually triage the problem nor even exclude user error.. attempts to get more information is so far unsuccessful10:34
wwoodsexcept if you did, it totally screwed your system10:34
wwoodsahh, 10.010:34
wwoodsfun times10:34
metherLovechild: I send them a mail10:35
wwoodsthere are other bugzilla changes (3.0 wooo) but those are a while off10:35
metherLovechild: err, I will send them10:35
wwoodsoh! if there are bugzilla interfaces (XMLRPC etc) that you need, *please* send me an email10:35
wwoodsso I can let dkl know what interfaces we use, so we can be sure those get ported10:35
Lovechildmether: well maybe they are just ignoring me so maybe if you tried10:36
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mkanatwwoods: I was just reading the spec for all that, the other day. :-)10:37
metherLovechild: live cd installations have all worked successfully for me. So I was just wondering if there was a problem that commonly occured that I didnt know about.10:37
mkanatwwoods: I was chatting with dkl about it since I'm in charge of the WebService, upstream.10:37
wwoodsmkanat: oh excellent!10:37
mkanatWell, kind of in charge of it.10:37
wwoods"in charge" like "you were the last one to touch it! it's yours now!"10:37
mkanatwwoods: LOL. Well, like I wrote a lot of it so it's mine by default.10:38
mkanatwwoods: A lot of Bugzilla is that way, for me. :-D10:39
wwoodsI know how that goes. Well, awesome. Glad to know you'll be involved in that process.10:39
mkanatwwoods: Indeed. :-) You can feel free to ask me about things or suggest things to me, also.10:40
wwoodsBut yeah, I know FESCo and the pkgdb and such use some xmlrpc stuff, so I'll need to mention this to them as well10:40
mkanatAny Fedora QA person is free to ask me about Bugzilla, as long as it's not like, some hours-long explanation thing. :-)10:40
f13I don't know what xmlrpc calls I need to make, I just know tasks I wish to complete10:40
wwoodsf13: right, well, you're OK then. I just need to make sure that the interfaces that some of the tools use stick around10:41
f13like package reassignment, that would do a bugzilla query, find all instances of bugs of a package assigned ot the previous owner, to reassign them to the new owner.10:41
wwoods(or the tools get change right quick)10:41
wwoodsI'm trying to write a wiki page about using Bugzilla in Fedora10:41
wwoodsthere's some stuff that we haven't written down that people should know10:42
mkanatwwoods: You could link that from the New Bug page, too.10:42
wwoodse.g. we ignore pri/sev, we only pay attention to a few bug states, etc.10:42
wwoodsoh good call.10:42
mkanatwwoods: It's just [% IF product = 'Fedora' %] I think, in 2.18.10:42
mkanatIn 3.0 it'd probably be [% IF product.name = 'Fedora' %].10:43
wwoodsVery cool. I'll try to get that set up once we have a page to refer to10:43
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wwoodsgoing back to the rollback discussion for a second10:44
wwoodsfor the F9 cycle I want to focus more on helping people use the tools we've got10:44
wwoodsrather than making new tools10:44
wwoodssomething that does full filesystem rollbacks is a really good example - we already have lvm support for that, just need a good (or merely acceptable) interface10:45
wwoodssame for, like, a tester tool that shows what you've installed recently, lets you roll back to the stable/previous version, etc10:46
wwoodson a package level10:46
wwoodswe already have support for all that stuff in the tools (bodhi, yum, etc) but it needs an interface and docs10:46
wwoodsso I expect to spend most of the next six months working on docs on how we do stuff 10:46
wwoodsand tools that improve those processes10:46
wwoodsstuff like SNAKE and Beaker and Apport will have to wait (or get picked up by other interested parties)10:47
wwoodsso there's the Grand Vision. what that means in concrete terms is probably something like: more bug days and working on stuff we've got10:48
wwoodsand if we have time, making little GUIs for the things we do all the time anyway10:48
wwoodslike yum upgrades and downgrading packages and showing what the common bugs are10:48
wwoodsokay, enough vague philosophy talk10:49
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wwoodsyawn city. getting near the end of the hour.10:49
LovechildI'd ve very sad to see apport fall to the wayside, sadly I'm not capable of picking it up10:49
wwoodsquick recap: I'm mailing test-list about a Bug Day on Dec. 3 and upcoming changes to bugzilla (devel->rawhide, removing test releases)10:50
wwoodsLovechild: yeah, although I think there's a lot of potential for someone to merge apport + packagekit + bugbuddy10:50
wwoodscombine that with standardized bugzilla 3.0 web services and you'd have a sweet tool that works for everyone evverywhere10:50
Lovechildwwoods: oh please don't end the meeting like that, now my floor will be all covered in drool10:50
wwoodswithout so much distro-specific cruft stuffed into it10:51
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wwoodsbasically I'd like to see bugbuddy use PK to get debuginfo, and use some of the ideas from apport about bug retracing and making hashes of tracebacks to auto-find dupes10:52
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wwoodsso if someone wants to talk to the bug-buddy maintainer and drive that project, I'd be happy to provide advice10:52
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wwoodsbut mostly we need to work on getting more people testing updates and rawhide10:53
wwoodsand triaging bugs10:53
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wwoodsanyway. sorry. oh, qa-list is basically closed10:53
wwoods(it's strange that mailman doesn't have a "close list temporarily" checkbox)10:54
wwoodsyou can use bodhi's RSS feeds to track new package updates 10:54
lmackentest notifications will go away soon10:54
lmackeni'm almost done with the captcha code to allow anonymous feedback10:54
wwoodsI'm working on adding info about bodhi to the QA docs10:55
wwoodsmether: are you going to track that firstboot bug?10:55
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mkanatwwoods: I think bug-buddy already supports standard Bugzilla webservices, too.10:55
mkanatwwoods: I know that GNOME was working on it, at least.10:55
wwoodsmkanat: niiiice.10:55
wwoodsso yeah, teach it to install debuginfo packages (where applicable) and we'd be most of the way here10:56
mkanatwwoods: Yeah, GNOME is totally interested in that, too.10:56
mkanatwwoods: They had some discussion about it, maybe you could grab somebody from there about it.10:56
mkanatwwoods: Or I could grab somebody for you.10:56
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wwoodsthat would be very cool10:56
wwoodsin theory it's totally dead simple with BuildIDs in Fedora10:57
mkanatwwoods: Cool. I've pinged Olav Vitters, we'll see if he's around.10:57
wwoodsyou can just look at a header in the core and it'll tell you all the debuginfo you need10:57
wwoodsif we set up the debuginfo building properly you'd just have to do yum install [list of buildids straight from corefile]10:58
wwoodsbut yeah, distro-specific hooks for installing debuginfo would be completely grand10:59
poelcatwwoods: is this in the plans for F9? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureApport10:59
wwoodspoelcat: no10:59
poelcatwwoods: i'll remove the target release if you like :)10:59
wwoodsUnless someone else wants to own it10:59
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wwoodsBasically I think the ideas in Apport are sound, but it's something that should go into upstream tools11:01
wwoodsthe current implementation is very ubuntu-y. very brown.11:01
wwoodsokay. is there anything else people wanted to discuss?11:02
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wwoodslet's consider this meeting over, then. thanks for your time, everyone11:03
wwoodsBug Day Monday! Don't forget!11:04
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wwoodsooh maybe we should do pulseaudio bugs11:04
* joejaxx is happy he was able to attend one :D11:04
wwoodsjoejaxx: we're glad to have ya!11:04
wwoodsFor questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for 11:05
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mmcgrathbotAnnouncement from my owner (mmcgrath): There are issues with some core network equipment in the Phoenix datacenter. Repairs are being made but it is possible we will experience some brief outages on fedoraproject.org equipment. Please stand by for more when we find it.11:58
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mmcgrathbotAnnouncement from my owner (mmcgrath): We just had that blip mentioned earlier, some systems our down, others will be back in the next 10 minutes. Sorry for the disruption.12:40
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mmcgrathbotAnnouncement from my owner (mmcgrath): Everything should be back to normal now, anyone finding otherwise please let us know in #fedora-admin13:05
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