| --- Log opened Wed Nov 28 10:06:03 2007 | ||
| * wwoods begins the log | 10:06 | |
| wwoods | okay. I don't have a big agenda to get through today | 10:06 |
|---|---|---|
| wwoods | I've been working on rewriting the QA pages on the wiki to help people get started in QA | 10:06 |
| wwoods | (unfortunately, no wiki right now, so you'll have to take my word for it) | 10:07 |
| f13 | I believe you | 10:07 |
| ricky | I got to it, just really slowly. | 10:07 |
| wwoods | I've also been talking with Len DiMaggio about QA plans for Fedora - he's got decades of experience in the industry with this stuff so it's good to see what he thinks of our efforts | 10:08 |
| wwoods | (http://swqetesting.blogspot.com/) | 10:08 |
| wwoods | anyway, quick roll call: Lovechild, f13, mether, rdieter, nirik, mkanat: who's here? | 10:09 |
| mkanat | I am. | 10:09 |
| mether | I am | 10:10 |
| mkanat | Kind of randomly, really. :-) | 10:10 |
| wwoods | heh! | 10:10 |
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| f13 | wwoods: wonk. | 10:10 |
| wwoods | Lovechild: I finally put links to the Fedora QA schedule on the QA page | 10:10 |
| wwoods | (see near the bottom, under Regular Meetings) | 10:10 |
| wwoods | in theory we had a Bug Day on Monday the 19th. did that happen? | 10:11 |
| mether | no | 10:11 |
| rdieter | here | 10:11 |
| wwoods | mether: ah well | 10:11 |
| wwoods | Well. I have another one scheduled for Monday the 3rd | 10:12 |
| wwoods | (it's even on the calendar) | 10:12 |
| wwoods | I'd like to go through some new F8 bugs, but there's a lot. probably we should choose a couple of subsystems | 10:12 |
| wwoods | sound and kernel, for instance | 10:12 |
| wwoods | Anyway, I'll post to test-list after this about it | 10:14 |
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| wwoods | anyone who has a suggestion for things to examine can speak up there | 10:14 |
| mether | is there important bugs filed against Fedora 8 that we should look at? | 10:15 |
| f13 | that requires triaging | 10:16 |
| wwoods | There's nothing I know of that's not on Bugs/F8Common | 10:16 |
| f13 | which is some of the point of bug days | 10:16 |
| mether | In a number of systems, it seems firstboot doesnt show up but I havent seen any specific bug reports on that for instance | 10:16 |
| wwoods | but.. yes, f13's got it | 10:16 |
| mkanat | mether: Yes, I filed the bug that's probably the source of most of that. | 10:16 |
| mether | mkanat: great. whats the bug number? | 10:16 |
| mkanat | mether: I'll go find it. | 10:17 |
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| mether | I will add that to the common bugs list | 10:17 |
| * mkanat wishes bugzilla.redhat.com was new enough that buggbot could query it. | 10:17 | |
| rdieter | fwiw, I triaged a whole bunch of kde bugs on the 19th, resulting in closing a whole slew of ancient bugs, and marking many newer ones NEEDINFO. | 10:18 |
| mkanat | bug 364951 | 10:18 |
| buggbot | Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=364951 high, high, ---, Chris Lumens, ASSIGNED , firstboot doesn't start if network connection fails | 10:18 |
| wwoods | interesting | 10:19 |
| mether | i have seen atleast a dozen different posts | 10:19 |
| mether | and a few people in my office have hit this bug | 10:19 |
| mkanat | It's most likely that. | 10:19 |
| mether | very likely | 10:20 |
| mether | ironically, I spend more time in this release checking out how yum upgrade works and didnt test Anaconda much | 10:20 |
| mkanat | Heh. :-) | 10:21 |
| mkanat | Well, I have to say, yum upgrade worked really well for me, so... :-D | 10:21 |
| Lovechild | for what it's worth, here - I just zoned out for a bit | 10:21 |
| mether | mkanat: yes. I think it has worked pretty well this release | 10:21 |
| mether | wwoods: there was some discussions in fedora-devel list about testing anaconda | 10:21 |
| mether | wwoods: in the context of the upgrade problems (actually a yum issue) | 10:22 |
| mkanat | mether: Yeah. :-) | 10:22 |
| wwoods | mether: yeah, I saw that there was a discussion but didn't read it | 10:22 |
| Lovechild | I thought SNAKE was going to be our savior on anaconda issues | 10:22 |
| mether | Lovechild: it was Kate before. I dont know if SNAKE is any better | 10:22 |
| mether | has anyone worked with it? | 10:22 |
| wwoods | unfortunately snake only helps when we have good inputs | 10:22 |
| wwoods | like package lists | 10:22 |
| f13 | really what would help more than anything is getting more and more people to test upgrades during the development cycle. | 10:23 |
| wwoods | unless we knew in advance what package sets to try, we wouldn't have hit this | 10:23 |
| * poelcat is here | 10:23 | |
| f13 | if we had better utilities to say snapshot your system, attempt an upgrade, note failures, restore to old snapshot this would be much more compelling | 10:23 |
| f13 | We can do some of that with virt, but... | 10:24 |
| poelcat | mether: we attempted to have a bug day... a few people stopped by | 10:24 |
| mether | I think the release criteria should include testing without a network connection | 10:24 |
| f13 | the real value is in testing this stuff on people's day to day machines. | 10:24 |
| f13 | mether: feel free to add it. | 10:24 |
| wwoods | mether: that's reasonable. | 10:24 |
| mether | poelcat: yes we *attempted*. It didnt really happen | 10:24 |
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| mether | not blaming anyone. it just didnt | 10:24 |
| Lovechild | f13: that sounds like a compelling idea, some kind of tool to build an image pre update would seem to be a good idea | 10:24 |
| f13 | Lovechild: we need such tools anyway, and the ability to restore to said image outside the system (shoudl the system become hosed) from like a rescue kit. | 10:25 |
| f13 | Lovechild: the OS X time machine stuff is extremely neat | 10:25 |
| * wwoods bought a mac mini this week, didn't get Leopard on it (!@%!@##&) | 10:26 | |
| Lovechild | f13: could we build it into the rescue cd, it would be a simple boot - the only problem is really restoring the system. | 10:26 |
| wwoods | there's vestigial snapshot/rollback support stuff in yum and rpm | 10:27 |
| f13 | wwoods: take it back! | 10:27 |
| Lovechild | so what we really need is a filesystem that natively supports that kind of snapshotting such as btrfs | 10:27 |
| f13 | wwoods: we want it outside rpm/yum | 10:27 |
| wwoods | f13: nah, I'll just give 'em $10 and make 'em send me a copy | 10:27 |
| f13 | wwoods: it needs to be general purpose so that it catches silly "I just deleted my home directory" stuff. | 10:27 |
| wwoods | and/or "borrow" a copy in the meantime | 10:27 |
| wwoods | f13: seriously? that's *our* problem? | 10:27 |
| f13 | Lovechild: LVM can easily do snapshots, regardless of file system. | 10:27 |
| f13 | wwoods: it's Fedora's problem. | 10:27 |
| Lovechild | f13: that's not silly, that's tragic.. think of all porn | 10:28 |
| f13 | wwoods: we seriously need something like time machine, or XP's snapshot system. | 10:28 |
| mether | Lovechild: that might take a year or two if we are relying on that specific filesystem. LVM's seems to be a better answer to me | 10:28 |
| f13 | Lovechild: there is a Feature for RescueKit, a greatly improved rescue image. | 10:28 |
| wwoods | yes, it's a need, but it's not a QA problem | 10:28 |
| f13 | wwoods: sure, it would just help make QA more compelling if one could reliably recover from a failed attempt | 10:28 |
| wwoods | oh absolutely | 10:29 |
| Lovechild | mether: lvm is appealing but it's definitely not without it's downfalls either the tools to use it are abominable | 10:29 |
| mether | f13: btw what happened to the idea of dropping the boot.iso and just using rescue iso images for everything? | 10:29 |
| mkanat | Even just doing, "Here's a list of packages installed, and then do this, and then try an upgrade" would probably work. | 10:29 |
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| mether | Lovechild: idk. if you understand the concepts, the tools seem fairly logical to me | 10:30 |
| f13 | mether: that's in the Anaconda feature pages. | 10:30 |
| Lovechild | also lvm has some known performance issues on raid setups, cutting my throughput in half thanks to a bolt on solution | 10:30 |
| mether | anyway back to topic | 10:30 |
| mether | is there anything specific to discuss? | 10:30 |
| f13 | Lovechild: to be fair, system-config-lvm has improved over time. | 10:30 |
| wwoods | mkanat: right | 10:30 |
| Lovechild | mether: we are talking about a time machine like things here.. that actual users can operate, lvm is far to complex currently it needs serious sugar | 10:30 |
| f13 | bugzilla change is upcoming, I really think somebody needs to make more noise about this. | 10:30 |
| rdieter | oh? | 10:31 |
| poelcat | f13 noise about what? | 10:31 |
| wwoods | which bugzilla change? | 10:31 |
| mether | Lovechild: The Apple underlying technologies are similar too. If you think we need better gui's, I wont argue with that | 10:31 |
| f13 | wwoods: devel -> rawhide | 10:32 |
| f13 | and removing the test releases. | 10:32 |
| mether | Lovechild: any idea what was the live cd installation problem linux action show kept cribbing about ? | 10:32 |
| wwoods | f13: ah. yes. | 10:32 |
| wwoods | I'll make some noise on test-list | 10:32 |
| f13 | mether: Apple also doesn't really give you much of a choice on using a filesystem that their tools wouldn't support. | 10:32 |
| Lovechild | mether: I'm just saying before we have said tools in a shape users can operate and that integrates with the system. No users are realistically using it so defacto we don't have that capability | 10:32 |
| f13 | mether: We have far too many choices that makes trying to create easy to use tools a nightmare as they would only work part of the time. | 10:32 |
| mether | f13: I suggested long back to drop the rest of the filesystems we kind of allow | 10:33 |
| wwoods | f13: they used to let you install to UFS | 10:34 |
| Lovechild | mether: They didn't give enough information to actually triage the problem nor even exclude user error.. attempts to get more information is so far unsuccessful | 10:34 |
| wwoods | except if you did, it totally screwed your system | 10:34 |
| wwoods | ahh, 10.0 | 10:34 |
| wwoods | fun times | 10:34 |
| mether | Lovechild: I send them a mail | 10:35 |
| wwoods | there are other bugzilla changes (3.0 wooo) but those are a while off | 10:35 |
| mether | Lovechild: err, I will send them | 10:35 |
| wwoods | oh! if there are bugzilla interfaces (XMLRPC etc) that you need, *please* send me an email | 10:35 |
| wwoods | so I can let dkl know what interfaces we use, so we can be sure those get ported | 10:35 |
| Lovechild | mether: well maybe they are just ignoring me so maybe if you tried | 10:36 |
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| mkanat | wwoods: I was just reading the spec for all that, the other day. :-) | 10:37 |
| mether | Lovechild: live cd installations have all worked successfully for me. So I was just wondering if there was a problem that commonly occured that I didnt know about. | 10:37 |
| mkanat | wwoods: I was chatting with dkl about it since I'm in charge of the WebService, upstream. | 10:37 |
| wwoods | mkanat: oh excellent! | 10:37 |
| mkanat | Well, kind of in charge of it. | 10:37 |
| wwoods | "in charge" like "you were the last one to touch it! it's yours now!" | 10:37 |
| wwoods | ? | 10:37 |
| mkanat | wwoods: LOL. Well, like I wrote a lot of it so it's mine by default. | 10:38 |
| mkanat | wwoods: A lot of Bugzilla is that way, for me. :-D | 10:39 |
| wwoods | I know how that goes. Well, awesome. Glad to know you'll be involved in that process. | 10:39 |
| mkanat | wwoods: Indeed. :-) You can feel free to ask me about things or suggest things to me, also. | 10:40 |
| wwoods | But yeah, I know FESCo and the pkgdb and such use some xmlrpc stuff, so I'll need to mention this to them as well | 10:40 |
| mkanat | Any Fedora QA person is free to ask me about Bugzilla, as long as it's not like, some hours-long explanation thing. :-) | 10:40 |
| f13 | I don't know what xmlrpc calls I need to make, I just know tasks I wish to complete | 10:40 |
| wwoods | f13: right, well, you're OK then. I just need to make sure that the interfaces that some of the tools use stick around | 10:41 |
| f13 | like package reassignment, that would do a bugzilla query, find all instances of bugs of a package assigned ot the previous owner, to reassign them to the new owner. | 10:41 |
| wwoods | (or the tools get change right quick) | 10:41 |
| wwoods | I'm trying to write a wiki page about using Bugzilla in Fedora | 10:41 |
| wwoods | there's some stuff that we haven't written down that people should know | 10:42 |
| mkanat | wwoods: You could link that from the New Bug page, too. | 10:42 |
| wwoods | e.g. we ignore pri/sev, we only pay attention to a few bug states, etc. | 10:42 |
| wwoods | oh good call. | 10:42 |
| mkanat | wwoods: It's just [% IF product = 'Fedora' %] I think, in 2.18. | 10:42 |
| mkanat | In 3.0 it'd probably be [% IF product.name = 'Fedora' %]. | 10:43 |
| wwoods | Very cool. I'll try to get that set up once we have a page to refer to | 10:43 |
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| wwoods | going back to the rollback discussion for a second | 10:44 |
| wwoods | for the F9 cycle I want to focus more on helping people use the tools we've got | 10:44 |
| wwoods | rather than making new tools | 10:44 |
| wwoods | something that does full filesystem rollbacks is a really good example - we already have lvm support for that, just need a good (or merely acceptable) interface | 10:45 |
| wwoods | same for, like, a tester tool that shows what you've installed recently, lets you roll back to the stable/previous version, etc | 10:46 |
| wwoods | on a package level | 10:46 |
| wwoods | we already have support for all that stuff in the tools (bodhi, yum, etc) but it needs an interface and docs | 10:46 |
| wwoods | so I expect to spend most of the next six months working on docs on how we do stuff | 10:46 |
| wwoods | and tools that improve those processes | 10:46 |
| wwoods | stuff like SNAKE and Beaker and Apport will have to wait (or get picked up by other interested parties) | 10:47 |
| wwoods | so there's the Grand Vision. what that means in concrete terms is probably something like: more bug days and working on stuff we've got | 10:48 |
| wwoods | and if we have time, making little GUIs for the things we do all the time anyway | 10:48 |
| wwoods | like yum upgrades and downgrading packages and showing what the common bugs are | 10:48 |
| wwoods | okay, enough vague philosophy talk | 10:49 |
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| wwoods | yawn city. getting near the end of the hour. | 10:49 |
| Lovechild | I'd ve very sad to see apport fall to the wayside, sadly I'm not capable of picking it up | 10:49 |
| wwoods | quick recap: I'm mailing test-list about a Bug Day on Dec. 3 and upcoming changes to bugzilla (devel->rawhide, removing test releases) | 10:50 |
| wwoods | Lovechild: yeah, although I think there's a lot of potential for someone to merge apport + packagekit + bugbuddy | 10:50 |
| wwoods | combine that with standardized bugzilla 3.0 web services and you'd have a sweet tool that works for everyone evverywhere | 10:50 |
| Lovechild | wwoods: oh please don't end the meeting like that, now my floor will be all covered in drool | 10:50 |
| wwoods | without so much distro-specific cruft stuffed into it | 10:51 |
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| wwoods | basically I'd like to see bugbuddy use PK to get debuginfo, and use some of the ideas from apport about bug retracing and making hashes of tracebacks to auto-find dupes | 10:52 |
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| wwoods | so if someone wants to talk to the bug-buddy maintainer and drive that project, I'd be happy to provide advice | 10:52 |
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| wwoods | but mostly we need to work on getting more people testing updates and rawhide | 10:53 |
| wwoods | and triaging bugs | 10:53 |
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| wwoods | anyway. sorry. oh, qa-list is basically closed | 10:53 |
| wwoods | (it's strange that mailman doesn't have a "close list temporarily" checkbox) | 10:54 |
| wwoods | you can use bodhi's RSS feeds to track new package updates | 10:54 |
| lmacken | test notifications will go away soon | 10:54 |
| lmacken | i'm almost done with the captcha code to allow anonymous feedback | 10:54 |
| wwoods | cool! | 10:54 |
| wwoods | I'm working on adding info about bodhi to the QA docs | 10:55 |
| wwoods | mether: are you going to track that firstboot bug? | 10:55 |
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| mkanat | wwoods: I think bug-buddy already supports standard Bugzilla webservices, too. | 10:55 |
| mkanat | wwoods: I know that GNOME was working on it, at least. | 10:55 |
| wwoods | mkanat: niiiice. | 10:55 |
| wwoods | so yeah, teach it to install debuginfo packages (where applicable) and we'd be most of the way here | 10:56 |
| mkanat | wwoods: Yeah, GNOME is totally interested in that, too. | 10:56 |
| mkanat | wwoods: They had some discussion about it, maybe you could grab somebody from there about it. | 10:56 |
| mkanat | wwoods: Or I could grab somebody for you. | 10:56 |
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| wwoods | that would be very cool | 10:56 |
| wwoods | in theory it's totally dead simple with BuildIDs in Fedora | 10:57 |
| mkanat | wwoods: Cool. I've pinged Olav Vitters, we'll see if he's around. | 10:57 |
| wwoods | you can just look at a header in the core and it'll tell you all the debuginfo you need | 10:57 |
| wwoods | if we set up the debuginfo building properly you'd just have to do yum install [list of buildids straight from corefile] | 10:58 |
| wwoods | but yeah, distro-specific hooks for installing debuginfo would be completely grand | 10:59 |
| poelcat | wwoods: is this in the plans for F9? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureApport | 10:59 |
| wwoods | poelcat: no | 10:59 |
| poelcat | wwoods: i'll remove the target release if you like :) | 10:59 |
| wwoods | Unless someone else wants to own it | 10:59 |
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| wwoods | Basically I think the ideas in Apport are sound, but it's something that should go into upstream tools | 11:01 |
| wwoods | the current implementation is very ubuntu-y. very brown. | 11:01 |
| wwoods | okay. is there anything else people wanted to discuss? | 11:02 |
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| wwoods | let's consider this meeting over, then. thanks for your time, everyone | 11:03 |
| wwoods | Bug Day Monday! Don't forget! | 11:04 |
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| wwoods | ooh maybe we should do pulseaudio bugs | 11:04 |
| * joejaxx is happy he was able to attend one :D | 11:04 | |
| joejaxx | partially* | 11:04 |
| wwoods | joejaxx: we're glad to have ya! | 11:04 |
| wwoods | heh | 11:04 |
| joejaxx | :) | 11:04 |
| wwoods | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for | 11:05 |
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| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule | 11:06 | |
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| mmcgrathbot | Announcement from my owner (mmcgrath): There are issues with some core network equipment in the Phoenix datacenter. Repairs are being made but it is possible we will experience some brief outages on fedoraproject.org equipment. Please stand by for more when we find it. | 11:58 |
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| mmcgrathbot | Announcement from my owner (mmcgrath): We just had that blip mentioned earlier, some systems our down, others will be back in the next 10 minutes. Sorry for the disruption. | 12:40 |
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| mmcgrathbot | Announcement from my owner (mmcgrath): Everything should be back to normal now, anyone finding otherwise please let us know in #fedora-admin | 13:05 |
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| GeroldKa | wb ChitleshGoorah | 15:10 |
| ChitleshGoorah | :) | 15:11 |
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| -!- rdieter is now known as rdieter_away | 15:38 | |
| -!- clarkbw [i=clarkbw@nat/redhat/x-82bf9eb75598e996] has quit ["shocks the conscience"] | 15:40 | |
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| --- Log closed Wed Nov 28 15:45:19 2007 | ||
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