| --- Log opened Wed Jul 09 11:03:59 2008 | ||
| -!- LyosNorezel [n=LyosNore@unaffiliated/lyosnorezel] has joined #fedora-meeting | 11:04 | |
| -!- Topic for #fedora-meeting: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule | 11:04 | |
| -!- Topic set by Kevin_Kofler [n=Kevin_Ko@chello213047068123.17.14.vie.surfer.at] [Tue Jul 8 13:04:40 2008] | 11:04 | |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | init | 11:04 | |
| * jds2001 wanders in | 11:04 | |
| wwoods | hey, does anyone have a link to the irc -> mediawiki converter dealie? | 11:04 |
|---|---|---|
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| * DemonJester lurking | 11:05 | |
| wwoods | or, honestly, we should set up a IRC log repo webapp dealie | 11:05 |
| wwoods | and by "we" I mean "someone else" | 11:05 |
| jlaska | wwoods: http://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/svn/ ? | 11:05 |
| wwoods | jlaska: that converts to html; does that work in mediawiki? | 11:05 |
| jds2001 | wwoods: i know there was some talk about having a bot in here that could log | 11:05 |
| jds2001 | i know ianweller_afk has something akin to irclog2html that converts to mediawiki tables | 11:06 |
| jlaska | wwoods: # New styles: xhtml, xhtmltable, mediawiki | 11:06 |
| wwoods | jlaska: sweet moustache! | 11:06 |
| jlaska | heh | 11:06 |
| wwoods | jlaska: thanks, I'll check that out once the meeting is over | 11:06 |
| jlaska | thanks to poelcat who gave me a heads up on that | 11:06 |
| wwoods | anyway; jlaska, alindebe, jds2001, poelcat, f13.. ping | 11:06 |
| -!- rdieter is now known as rdieter_afk | 11:06 | |
| * jds2001 | 11:06 | |
| * jlaska | 11:07 | |
| * f13 | 11:07 | |
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| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | team composition | 11:08 | |
| -!- spstarr_work [n=spstarr@192.219.104.10] has joined #fedora-meeting | 11:08 | |
| wwoods | so the roll call raises the question: who's actually *in* the QA team? | 11:08 |
| spstarr_work | wwoods: heh, anyone who helps retest bugs? :-) | 11:09 |
| wwoods | well, yeah, but I don't expect them to all attend meetings | 11:09 |
| spstarr_work | :-) | 11:09 |
| wwoods | people who I expect (well, hope) will attend QA meetings - a rep from each SIG | 11:09 |
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| wwoods | a rep from releng (f13 usually) | 11:09 |
| * f13 reps releng | 11:09 | |
| wwoods | jlaska, as Test Plan Ninja | 11:10 |
| spstarr_work | I will usually help test bugs once things freeze (downloading repos is just too much bandwidth suckage to test every snapshot ;/) | 11:10 |
| jlaska | anyone got a link to the sigs? | 11:10 |
| wwoods | jds2001, as Triage Guru | 11:10 |
| spstarr_work | as i did for F9 closing | 11:10 |
| che | wwoods, an important part to improve current qa for updates would be to assure that for testing updates the whole dep tree is beeing rebuilt | 11:10 |
| wwoods | poelcat, as Feature Wrangler (and Triage Guru #2) | 11:10 |
| wwoods | che: hold that thought | 11:10 |
| wwoods | so. anyone else I should be trying to pull into QA meetings? | 11:11 |
| wwoods | around release time I like to get a rep from the major dev teams (anaconda, kernel, X, desktop/gnome) | 11:11 |
| wwoods | do we need a FESCo rep? | 11:12 |
| jds2001 | would be nice...but not required i dont think | 11:12 |
| jlaska | wwoods: what about weekly meeting qa themes ... one example might be where we can pull in "special guest" stars to talk about upcoming features | 11:13 |
| wwoods | jlaska: yeah, we might want to do that to hammer out test plans for proposed features | 11:13 |
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| * stickster here, just off phone | 11:13 | |
| jlaska | wwoods: I'd like to begin polling for folks interested in the Test Plan subteam ... with the immediate goal of building plans for upcoming F10 features | 11:14 |
| * jlaska notes ... that sounds dirty | 11:14 | |
| jds2001 | oh, and stickster if he wants to i guess :) | 11:14 |
| jds2001 | do we have any feature pages yet? | 11:14 |
| wwoods | sure do | 11:15 |
| * jds2001 hasnt looked | 11:15 | |
| stickster | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CategoryProposedFedora10 | 11:15 |
| wwoods | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Dashboard | 11:15 |
| stickster | There's only one that's ready for approval voting, according to something I saw from poelcat this morning | 11:15 |
| wwoods | yeah, that's Haskell support | 11:15 |
| jlaska | stickster: great link, thx | 11:15 |
| stickster | Kinda makes my blog post from yesterday a little too rah-rah? :-) | 11:16 |
| wwoods | ha, YaakovNemoy owns that. How did I know? | 11:16 |
| jlaska | wwoods: stickster: what's the diff between the dashboard and the category page? | 11:16 |
| wwoods | the dashboard links to the proposed / accepted / rejected categories | 11:16 |
| wwoods | and isn't specific to F10 | 11:16 |
| wwoods | it's the canonical starting point for this stuff, if I understand it right | 11:17 |
| jlaska | ah ... okay so it'll also (eventually) have F11 F12 ... | 11:17 |
| wwoods | so I guess we should talk to loupgaroublond (I think that's Yaakov?) about improving the Test Plan | 11:17 |
| wwoods | (implicit ping) | 11:17 |
| * stickster is going to start calling it the "Eddie Haskell" feature. | 11:18 | |
| jlaska | stickster: so I can stay tuned to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/10/FeatureList for what's been approved for F10? | 11:19 |
| wwoods | so, okay, summing up: the QA "board" is now defined as wwoods, f13, jlaska, poelcat, and jds2001 - these are the people who should be in each meeting and are the main decision-makers | 11:20 |
| stickster | jlaska: That's the list for currently approved features, yeah | 11:20 |
| wwoods | we'd really like reps for each SIG/spin to attend | 11:20 |
| wwoods | ACTION: meet with owners of features up for approval to work on test plans | 11:21 |
| wwoods | good so far? | 11:21 |
| * wwoods assumes yes | 11:22 | |
| wwoods | okay next: Testopia | 11:22 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | Testopia | 11:22 | |
| wwoods | basically: We can't use testopia 'cuz of license problems. oh no! | 11:22 |
| jlaska | well ... | 11:22 |
| wwoods | well, okay | 11:22 |
| jlaska | we can't package it in Fedora due to licensing right? | 11:23 |
| wwoods | we can't have a public testopia instance for Fedora | 11:23 |
| jlaska | (which yeah means using it is a non-starter) | 11:23 |
| wwoods | yes, both of these things | 11:23 |
| jlaska | cool | 11:23 |
| wwoods | we still find it useful, though, so I think we're going to set up an internal one to continue tracking testing inside Red Hat | 11:23 |
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| jlaska | all due to the licensing of the javascript toolkit right? | 11:23 |
| jds2001 | well the licensing thing is getting worked out I think | 11:23 |
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| wwoods | we will only use it until such time as we can fix the licensing or create a replacement | 11:24 |
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| stickster | argh! | 11:24 |
| jds2001 | well it's currently legal since the version of ext-js used is version 2.0 | 11:24 |
| jds2001 | which is lgpl | 11:24 |
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| jds2001 | we cannot take am upgrade to ext-js 2.1 which becomes GPLv3 | 11:25 |
| wwoods | f13: can you clarify here, or should we find dave or something? | 11:25 |
| stickster | jds2001: Is the toolkit separately packaged? | 11:25 |
| jlaska | dmalcolm and jds2001 are the best informed on that subject iirc | 11:25 |
| jds2001 | stickster: not now, but it should be | 11:25 |
| * stickster is, he's sure, retreading ground, so apologies. | 11:25 | |
| stickster | jds2001: So if it was, a compat package *might* be workable? | 11:26 |
| wwoods | yeah I only got notified earlier this morning so I'm not 100% on the details | 11:26 |
| wwoods | so it's worth (re)discussing, for the record | 11:26 |
| jds2001 | yep | 11:26 |
| f13 | wwoods: uh... we're going to set something up internally to mine the data we've already created, I don't think we're going to continue using testopia for testing purposes. | 11:26 |
| wwoods | f13: really? okay | 11:27 |
| DemonJester | so we are back to using the wiki for testing, i take it.. | 11:27 |
| jds2001 | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=430138 is the current upstream discussion | 11:27 |
| buggbot | Bug 430138: low, low, ---, Daniel Walsh, CLOSED CURRENTRELEASE, /dev/dmmidi has default label; rpc.mountd causes SELinux error audits | 11:27 |
| wwoods | DemonJester: looks that way | 11:27 |
| wwoods | actually we might not be using it internally either | 11:27 |
| wwoods | I don't think we're going to touch it until this is sorted out | 11:27 |
| wwoods | hands off until the lawyers say so | 11:28 |
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| jds2001 | it is most defintely murky ground we dont wanna be involved with :/ | 11:28 |
| wwoods | indeed | 11:28 |
| f13 | right | 11:28 |
| f13 | upstream for the naughty component is supposedly working to create a foss friendly license | 11:29 |
| f13 | but that may take a while. | 11:29 |
| wwoods | so what are we going to do for Alpha? | 11:29 |
| jlaska | is it worthwhile considering pipelining those two activities? | 11:29 |
| jds2001 | but im sure there's some MPL-friendly AJAX library out there.... | 11:29 |
| wwoods | The "freeze" starts in.. 13 days? | 11:29 |
| * jds2001 doubts anything is resolved in 13 days | 11:30 | |
| jlaska | wiki unfortunately fits the time constraints | 11:30 |
| jlaska | [un]fortunately | 11:30 |
| stickster | f13: I hope that doesn't mean "creating our own new convoluted license." :-\ | 11:30 |
| jds2001 | stickster: i have a feeling it's an exception to teh license *for this project* :/ | 11:31 |
| jds2001 | which i dunno if that would be acceptable or not | 11:31 |
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| f13 | stickster: I do too. | 11:32 |
| f13 | wwoods: releng voted to push alpha out a week due to OLS | 11:32 |
| stickster | jds2001: If it's not redistributable, probably not. | 11:32 |
| f13 | and from what i can gather, the schedule has yet to be approved by FESCo | 11:33 |
| wwoods | f13: July 22 is the *new* date, isn't it? | 11:33 |
| wwoods | It was supposed to be July 15 | 11:33 |
| f13 | ohyeah | 11:33 |
| f13 | sorry | 11:33 |
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| wwoods | I'm assuming that the schedule change will be approved. If it's not, then we've got 6 days. | 11:33 |
| wwoods | either way, I think we're gonna be doing it wiki-style again | 11:34 |
| wwoods | alas | 11:35 |
| wwoods | on the positive side, using Testopia let us refine some of the test cases and plans we use | 11:35 |
| f13 | well the original schedule wasn't approved either | 11:35 |
| wwoods | so at least the plan should be pretty useful | 11:36 |
| jlaska | wwoods: yeah definitely a positive process ... not the immediate outcome we were hoping for of course | 11:36 |
| wwoods | (many thanks to alindebe, jlaska, and f13 for working on that stuff) | 11:36 |
| wwoods | yeah, hopefully we can keep working on it, despite having to switch tools | 11:36 |
| wwoods | anything else about testopia? | 11:37 |
| wwoods | okay. next up: bodhi changes | 11:38 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | Bodhi and updates-testing | 11:38 | |
| wwoods | So bodhi is supposed to be getting the ability to modify (or disable) the +3-karma-means-autopush rule | 11:38 |
| wwoods | which is good because I think we've had some mishaps with packages (e.g. kernel) getting pushed before they're really ready | 11:39 |
| wwoods | che: now, what were you saying about dep trees for updates? | 11:40 |
| f13 | wwoods: that change is supposedly live | 11:41 |
| jds2001 | wwoods: we've had busted deps in stable recently | 11:41 |
| jds2001 | i think that Bodhi (or releng :/ ) should check that the final outcome of a push is not bustificated. | 11:42 |
| wwoods | jds2001: how? | 11:42 |
| jds2001 | im not really concerned if updates-testing is busted, though | 11:42 |
| wwoods | well, obviously we should catch it in updates-testing first | 11:42 |
| jds2001 | i would assume something similar to how it checks rawhide | 11:43 |
| jds2001 | rihgt, but who cares if -testing is busted? We should probably generate a report on breakage there, though | 11:43 |
| wwoods | jds2001: except that check only happens once a day. doesn't the contents of updates-testing change all day long? | 11:43 |
| jds2001 | i dont thinkk so, that's a manual push by releng I think | 11:44 |
| jds2001 | from dist-f9-updates-candidate to dist-f9-updates-testing in koji | 11:44 |
| f13 | -candidate changes all day long | 11:44 |
| f13 | -testing only changes when we do a push | 11:44 |
| jds2001 | right | 11:44 |
| f13 | the rawhide check is just a check, it doesn't /stop/ anything from happening. | 11:45 |
| wwoods | so how long would it take to check whether a push to -testing would cause broken deps? | 11:45 |
| f13 | there is a current ticket open with bodhi to enable repoclosure, but it is extremely cost prohibitive, once you take multilib into account | 11:45 |
| wwoods | I assume the current algorithm for checking is to run a full repoclosure | 11:45 |
| wwoods | yeah | 11:45 |
| f13 | wwoods: many hours | 11:45 |
| f13 | wwoods: you have to create new repos from the new set of 'latest' packages, process those repos for multilib, and then repoclosure | 11:45 |
| wwoods | and if those fail.. can you prune the broken deps and only push the others? or does that mess up the repoclosure calculation and you have to run it again to be sure? | 11:47 |
| f13 | you'd have to run it again | 11:47 |
| f13 | if you wanted to be truly accurate | 11:47 |
| wwoods | yikes. | 11:47 |
| f13 | and take into account updates where are part of a set, say one kde package out of the 20 being pushed for updates causes broken deps... | 11:48 |
| wwoods | jds2001: so, yeah, it would take most of a day to check/fix deps on pushes to the updates repo | 11:48 |
| jds2001 | :( | 11:49 |
| wwoods | this is a pretty convincing case for either a) less updates pushes or b) better dep checking algorithm | 11:49 |
| jds2001 | i go for a+b :) | 11:49 |
| jds2001 | weekly pushes except for security should be plenty imho | 11:49 |
| jds2001 | or maybe twice a week | 11:49 |
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| f13 | slowing the push frequency isn't the answer | 11:50 |
| wwoods | that's a fairly major change | 11:50 |
| f13 | all that does is punish the users who want to get bugfixes | 11:50 |
| lmacken | f13: no that change (disabling autokarma) is not live | 11:50 |
| wwoods | I'd support it for a variety of reasons but it needs further discussion | 11:50 |
| jds2001 | agreed, nothing we can decide here | 11:51 |
| wwoods | (It'd also reduce the average startup time for yum) | 11:51 |
| lmacken | i'm going to be adding deltarpm generation to the push process soon, and will also polish up bodhi's closure module | 11:51 |
| lmacken | since we're going to be mashing on a separate server, it won't tax the web interface | 11:51 |
| lmacken | and once sigul is alive, we'll be pushing a lot more often.. so slowing the push frequence is not the answer | 11:52 |
| wwoods | speeding up the process is awesome. I still think there's a case to be made for slowing update push frequency, though. | 11:53 |
| jds2001 | just cuz we can doesnt mean we should :) | 11:54 |
| wwoods | that argument works in both directions | 11:54 |
| wwoods | heh | 11:54 |
| lmacken | there is a lot of low-hanging fruit within the update push process | 11:54 |
| wwoods | we can discuss slowing updates on one of the lists | 11:54 |
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| wwoods | we're not gonna make the decision here, though | 11:55 |
| lmacken | we're already taking way too long to get security updates out the door as it is :( | 11:55 |
| wwoods | but, let's sum up: it's not currently feasible to dep-check on pushes to updates. but lmacken is a hero and he's working on it. | 11:55 |
| lmacken | but yeah, that's a discussion for later | 11:55 |
| wwoods | lmacken: security updates would obviously be exempt. | 11:55 |
| wwoods | which is why it's still really important to speed up the push process, regardless | 11:56 |
| lmacken | indeed | 11:56 |
| wwoods | anyway, getting close to the 1hr mark | 11:56 |
| wwoods | anything else about updates/bodhi? | 11:57 |
| wwoods | I was going to talk about plans for linking bodhi to testopia, and having per-package test plans | 11:57 |
| wwoods | but alas | 11:57 |
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| lmacken | yeah, I was just about to ask about the test plans | 11:57 |
| lmacken | didn't you start them off in the wiki somewhere ? | 11:57 |
| wwoods | that's on hold for a while, what with testopia being in legal quarantine | 11:57 |
| jwb | what? | 11:58 |
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| lmacken | I find that there are a lot of people who are trying to churn through and actually test updates-testing... but have no idea how to do it | 11:58 |
| * jds2001 being summoned to a meeting :/ | 11:58 | |
| lmacken | wwoods: it's cool, dmalcom is working on a TurboGears reimplementation ;) | 11:58 |
| f13 | jwb: testopia uses a javascript library that has a conflicting license | 11:58 |
| wwoods | so the overall plan is: each package will have a link (probably stored in pkgdb) to a test plan | 11:59 |
| wwoods | the test plans were originally going to be stored in the wiki, but then we realized that was suboptimal, so we were going to use testopia, but that has legal trouble | 11:59 |
| jwb | f13, oh ok | 11:59 |
| wwoods | so now we're kind of up in the air | 11:59 |
| wwoods | we could define a stopgap measure for people who really want to write test plans now | 12:00 |
| jlaska | wwoods: yeah, dmalcom is doing some investigation in the back ground ... and I'm evaluating litmus as well | 12:00 |
| wwoods | example stopgap: you can create TestPlans/[packagename] in the wiki, and if that exists, the bodhi/pkgdb pages that involve that package can show a link | 12:00 |
| jlaska | wwoods: test plans on the wiki still is a good idea as far as I'm concerned (since those can be easily migrated into $tool). Storing test results on the wiki is a different story | 12:00 |
| lmacken | we shouldn't let that stop the plans from being written... why not just create a repo with flat files written in reStructuredText (which can then be pasted into the wiki, or rendered by the pkgdb, etc) | 12:00 |
| wwoods | repo with flat files also works but then I have to manage permissions on that repo | 12:01 |
| wwoods | although maybe we should allow people to create a [packagename].plan file in pkg CVS? | 12:01 |
| jlaska | what would using CVS give us? | 12:02 |
| jlaska | rather ... s/CVS/$VersionControl/ | 12:02 |
| wwoods | predefined heirarchy layout / ACL stuff | 12:02 |
| wwoods | makes it reeeeally simple for package maintainers to add test plans to their packages | 12:03 |
| jlaska | my preference would still be wiki ... it seems like the biggest bang for buck without having to invent new process | 12:03 |
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| wwoods | fair enough | 12:03 |
| jlaska | the other option is certainly valid ... but I'm just thinking about the process/perms etc we'd have to wrap around it in any formal announce | 12:04 |
| wwoods | so how do we manage different versions of test plans for different package versions | 12:04 |
| jlaska | and then the script to migrate the data into the wiki or some other presentation layer | 12:04 |
| wwoods | there's not going to be a formal announcement until we get the testopia problem sorted | 12:05 |
| wwoods | this is really just a stopgap | 12:05 |
| jlaska | wwoods: yeah that's a good question ... at what level do we want to bind packages to test plan | 12:05 |
| jlaska | %{name} %{srcname} %{name}-%{version} etc... | 12:05 |
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| f13 | well, the simple answer is we bind fedora versions to it | 12:06 |
| f13 | the F-9 bind plan, the F-8 bind plan, the rawhide bind plan | 12:06 |
| f13 | builds from those branches trigger test runs from those branches. | 12:06 |
| wwoods | Yeah, I'd say something like: Test Plans/F10/SOURCE_PACKAGE | 12:06 |
| jlaska | that's a good idea | 12:07 |
| f13 | if we were going to do it in SCM somewhere, I'd prefer it goes with the package scm. | 12:07 |
| jlaska | and likely works well with how any future mgmt tooling will stucture this stuff | 12:07 |
| wwoods | and maintainers can opt to, say, have their package redirect its test plan to a different test plan | 12:07 |
| wwoods | so Test Plans/F10/xulrunner could redirect to the firefox plan | 12:08 |
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| jlaska | wwoods: ooh that's good | 12:08 |
| che | wwoods, pong | 12:08 |
| wwoods | we're re-creating the package SCM layout in the wiki. but whatever, that's fine | 12:09 |
| che | wwoods, an important part to improve current qa for updates would be to assure that for testing updates the whole dep tree is beeing rebuilt | 12:09 |
| che | wwoods, now there is atleast some checking done already. | 12:09 |
| che | wwoods, updates-testing report | 12:09 |
| wwoods | che: see previous discussion about why we can't actually do that in any reasonable amount of time | 12:09 |
| f13 | **with today's toolsets | 12:09 |
| che | wwoods, please publish the logs somewhere. i have to leave now unfortunately. | 12:09 |
| che | wwoods, without that there cant be proper regression testing though. | 12:10 |
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| wwoods | okay, so, we're gonna recommend that people write test plans in the wiki. are we gonna worry about having individual pages for each test case? | 12:11 |
| jlaska | wwoods: how would you feel about leaving that up to the test plan author ... but providing several examples to help guide authors? | 12:12 |
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| jlaska | here's one way ... another way etc... | 12:12 |
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| wwoods | yeah, that's fine too | 12:13 |
| jlaska | wwoods: would you be open to selecting a subset of components to target for the first round? | 12:13 |
| jlaska | tier#1 type stuff ... like yum, kernel, rpm, glibc ... | 12:13 |
| wwoods | definitely, although a glibc test plan would be really dang hard to write | 12:14 |
| jlaska | not ... joe, nedit etc... | 12:14 |
| wwoods | but some basic test plans for important components would be a really good idea | 12:14 |
| jlaska | maybe some tier#1 desktop stuff ... firefox ... gnome-session ... dunno | 12:15 |
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| * jlaska thinking of the components that are most embarrasing when shipped DOA | 12:16 | |
| -!- sonar_logger3 [n=sglaser@dpc6744130021.direcpc.com] has joined #fedora-meeting | 12:16 | |
| wwoods | yeah, desktop stuff is better. also: yum | 12:17 |
| wwoods | anyway, pick a couple of things and write skeletal plans | 12:18 |
| -!- DemonJester [n=bpowell0@fedora/DemonJester] has quit ["leaving"] | 12:18 | |
| wwoods | and we'll work on getting guidelines and linkage to bodhi/pkgdb once we have played a bit | 12:18 |
| wwoods | so, yeah, recommended page location: Test Plans/[dist]/[source package] | 12:19 |
| jlaska | okay | 12:20 |
| wwoods | does the MW API catch redirects, I wonder? | 12:20 |
| jlaska | I think it supports various types of includes as another option | 12:20 |
| wwoods | like if you ask it for the contents of Test Plans/F10/xulrunner and that redirects to Test Plans/F10/firefox and *that* redirects to Test Plans/firefox | 12:20 |
| jlaska | hrmm, not sure right now | 12:21 |
| -!- hanthana [n=hanthana@124.43.59.141] has quit [No route to host] | 12:21 | |
| wwoods | we'll need to investigate that before we try wiring up to bodhi | 12:22 |
| wwoods | anyway, we're well over time for the meeting. and lunch, for that matter. | 12:22 |
| wwoods | anything else we should discuss? | 12:22 |
| -!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | misc. | 12:22 | |
| f13 | cheers! | 12:22 |
| jlaska | keep up with the /topic changes please ... I really enjoy that | 12:22 |
| jlaska | helps when reading the notes later too | 12:22 |
| wwoods | yup! I try to remember to do that | 12:23 |
| wwoods | Okay, I'm going to take the silence as a "no" and end the meeting | 12:23 |
| wwoods | thanks for your time, folks | 12:23 |
| jlaska | thanks wwoods | 12:23 |
| --- Log closed Wed Jul 09 12:24:02 2008 | ||
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