--- Log opened Wed Jul 16 11:02:09 2008
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA meeting | init11:02
wwoodsf13, jlaska, poelcat, dmalcolm.. ping11:03
* f13 11:03
* jlaska 11:04
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wwoodsso, yay, QA time11:05
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wwoodsAlpha is looming on the horizon11:05
-!- wwoods changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora QA Meeting | Alpha readiness11:05
wwoodsthe F10Alpha blocker exists and has some bugs on it11:05
buggbotBug 446445: low, low, ---, Bill Nottingham, ASSIGNED , Fedora 10 Alpha Blocker11:06
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wwoodsplease add bugs / review the ones already there, as appropriate11:06
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wwoodsIf there's any question about whether something's a blocker, bring it up in #fedora-qa11:08
wwoodsas for the features that will be present in F10Alpha11:08
wwoodshttp://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/10/FeatureList seems to indicate that only RPM4.6 is ready to test11:09
wwoods(which isn't true, really - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BetterStartup == plymouth, most of which is in rawhide)11:09
wwoodsbut definitely pay extra close attention to RPM weirdness11:09
jlaskawwoods: how come plymouth isn't on the proposed or approved list yet ... I gather that'll be discussed in a future fesco meeting?11:10
wwoodsIf there were more features ready for testing, we would be discussing test plans for them11:10
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wwoodshttps://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-July/msg00912.html discusses how to write good feature test plans11:10
wwoodspoelcat is going to be integrating that info into the Feature policy.. somewhere11:11
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wwoodsjlaska: I suspect because it hasn't been proposed yet11:11
wwoodswhich is odd since it's already partially landed11:12
wwoodsbut whatever11:12
wwoodsNot My Problem11:12
wwoodsthe test plan in BetterStartup is an OK start11:12
wwoodsthe big problem is.. figuring out how we're going to track our installation testing for Alpha11:13
wwoodsit was supposed to be Testopia, but Testopia is gone11:13
* f13 looks at dm11:13
f13dmalcolm who's not in this channel11:13
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wwoodsdmalcolm: hiya!11:14
f13<wwoods> the big problem is.. figuring out how we're going to track our installation testing for Alpha11:14
wwoodsany news on Testopia and/or its rumored replacement?11:14
wwoodsand, followup: if we need to pull the F10 installer test plan out of the old Testopia instance, can we do that?11:14
wwoodsthere were some revisions in there that hadn't made it back to the plans in the wiki11:14
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dmalcolmso currently there appears to be a licensing conflict between testopia and extjs.  The Mozilla foundation are apparently in talks with extjs.com, and I've heard the 18th as a date on which we hope to get some info11:15
dmalcolmso realistically don't expect to know until next week11:16
dmalcolmin the meantime, have pulled the testopia instance11:16
dmalcolmI've implemented a turbogears reimplementation of a UI, using same db schema11:16
dmalcolmI've implemented a turbogears reimplementation of a UI, using same db schema11:17
dmalcolmsee http://publictest2.fedoraproject.org/turbozilla/ (running instance) and http://dmalcolm.fedorapeople.org/hacking/testopia/ (code)11:17
dmalcolmthis doesn't yet have login/auth/identity so no editing11:17
dmalcolmI've also been trying to package every other js lib I can find11:18
dmalcolmin case upstream testopia wants to port away from extjs11:18
wwoodsoh so we're literally using the same DB data with a new UI11:18
jlaskadmalcolm: what is your sense for the number of js lib's requiring packaging?11:18
dmalcolmsame db, in fact11:19
dmalcolmjlaska: only need one, just one that's license compatible11:19
dmalcolmwould rather not entirely fork from upstream11:19
dmalcolmto answer earlier question re data migration: I wrote a sqlalchemy mapping for the db schema, so it's fairly simple to write python scripts to extract data11:20
dmalcolmso options are:11:20
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dmalcolm(i) hope licensing is resolved within reasonable timeframe and use testopia + extjs11:21
dmalcolm(ii) port testopia to another js lib11:21
dmalcolm(iii) use reimplemented UI ("turbozilla") to talk to same db and work on that to provide functionmality needed11:21
dmalcolm(iv) migrate data back to wiki11:22
dmalcolm(v) use "litmus", another tcms11:22
dmalcolm(vi) other things I haven't thought of11:22
dmalcolmI don't have a sense of the fedora qa team's timeframe, I'm afraid11:23
wwoodswell, Alpha freezes on Tuesday the 22nd11:24
jlaskamight I suggest we do 2 things in parallel?11:24
wwoodsand then we have about a week to test before it gets released11:24
wwoodsBeta / PR are each one month later than the previous11:24
jlaskawwoods: I don't believe there is much to do in terms of 'migrate data back to wiki' ... is there?11:24
wwoodsThere were some cases adde11:24
* jlaska thinking of 'installation test plan' not rawhide plans11:24
wwoodserr added11:24
wwoodsinstallation test plan is a superset of rawhide plans11:25
jlaskayeah, very few though right ... nothing that needs fancy scripting11:25
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wwoodsso changes to the rawhide plan imply changes to installation plan11:25
f13given that I'm spinning up a full set of bits to test today it'd be nice to have /somewhere/ to record resutls11:25
jlaskaf13: perhaps your efforts could dovetail with dmalcolms turbozilla efforts?11:26
jlaskawhile the baseline of testing would work through wiki results (yes, not optimal)11:26
f13my efforts are just to produce something for people /to/ test.11:26
jlaskadmalcolm: I gather the additional of authentication and data entry to turbozilla is likely a large effort (1 week)?11:27
dmalcolmmaybe much shorter if i can get lmacken's help11:27
dmalcolmlmacken: around?11:27
dmalcolmor anyone else with advanced turbogears-fu11:28
DemonJesterJust my opinion but bringing in a completely new reporting system for testing at this point may take away from actual testing due to the learning curve and issues with the system itself that may crop up, keep in mind I am not a fan of the wiki-style test results but it seems giving the timeframe we have, the may be no choice. Just my opinion.11:28
dmalcolmfair point11:28
jlaskaDemonJester: I agree11:29
wwoodsDemonJester: yes, but right now we have *no* reporting system11:29
jlaskaI'd recommend we continue to support dmalcolm+friends with the turbozilla efforts ... while walking through the test plan for Alpha11:29
f13DemonJester: we're at that point no matter what, since the previous "reporting" system was Moin, and now we have MediaWiki11:30
DemonJesterwwoods that is an issue :-(11:30
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f13DemonJester: so no matter what, there is going to be re-training on test inputs.  I'd rather that be on a !wiki system since that'll actually make things easier.11:30
DemonJesterf13 understood11:30
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dmalcolmI have the beginnings of a reporting UI, but need to hook into auth11:31
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dmalcolmhook for creating builds and runs would also be needed11:32
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wwoodsno lmacken, alas11:34
wwoodsWell. I guess we're going to have to plan to use the wiki for Alpha11:34
wwoodsor just do something ad-hoc like.. using gobby11:35
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* lmacken is here11:36
lmackendmalcolm: what's up ?11:36
wwoodsactually gobby isn't a terrible idea for Alpha, since it's really easy to edit collaboratively11:36
wwoodsbut not really that great for recordkeeping11:36
lmackenaww, the 'git commit -a' cronjob isn't good enough ? :)11:37
dmalcolmlmacken: any chance of some tg hacking help over next day or so?11:37
lmackendmalcolm: sure11:37
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wwoodsokay cool.11:42
wwoodsjlaska: so I assumed you meant we'd be doing reporting/coordination on the wiki for Alpha11:43
wwoodslet's just keep going with that, since we don't really have any other choice at the moment11:43
jlaskawwoods: that'd be my suggestion ... it's a known/familiar path11:43
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wwoodswe'll revisit this after alpha, and hopefully we'll be able to start using.. something11:43
wwoodswe'll see how that shakes out11:44
jlaskaI can reduce/mitigate the data entry warts on the wiki for the Alpha11:44
f13jlaska: except it's not "known".11:44
wwoodsso we need to revise the installation test plan as it exists in the wiki, for f1011:44
wwoodsand we need to create a results matrix11:44
f13jlaska: last time we used the wiki for testing it was moin, not mediawiki11:44
jlaskaf13: ah I see what you mean11:44
jlaskaf13: using the wiki is known ... but you are correct, there may/will be some mediawiki specific data entry changes11:45
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jlaskawwoods: I'd suggest we have a result page per architecture ... to simplify edits11:45
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wwoodsfair enough11:46
wwoodsdoes that mean you're volunteering to set that up?11:46
jlaskaperhaps something like ... TestResults/F10Alpha_i386, TestResults/F10Alpha_ppc, TestResults/F10Alpha_x86_6411:46
jlaskawwoods: I'll be happy to set that up ... feel free to put me down in the notes as ACTION ITEM'd :)11:46
f13I'd prefer they were blocks on the same page11:47
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f13so that if I finished multiple tests at once I can just edit the whole page, or just one of the arch sections.11:47
jlaskaf13: ah ... so use different sections in the TOC for each arch?11:47
jlaskathat's do able11:47
f13mmcgrath: I'm going to upgrade kernel-xen on test3, that should get us back in business.11:47
jlaskaI wanted to avoid data entry in the same table record ... confusing as to which arch was executed and who was responsible for that execution11:47
f13right, that's a great goal11:48
jlaskaso I think we can still make it useful w/o being too painful for data entry for the Alpha11:49
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f13and if/when we get a new reporting system we can always backlog the wiki results11:50
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wwoodsokay, so, that's decided: results in wiki page, different sections per arch11:52
wwoodsjlaska will set up the results matrix11:53
dmalcolmseems like the sanest approach.  I'll continue trying to put a db-backed tool together, but looks like there's no way I can guarantee something for Alpha11:53
wwoodsmyself and jlaska will make sure all the test plan changes from testopia are pulled into the wiki test plan11:53
wwoodsdmalcolm: that's fine, your efforts to date are already heroic 11:54
dmalcolmheh thanks11:54
wwoodsdmalcolm: we'll talk again about it next week and hopefully have a better idea what our options are, realistically11:54
wwoodsthat's about all I can think of for Alpha readiness. anything else?11:55
dmalcolmwill let you know if/when I here about updates on the licensing issue11:55
wwoodsdmalcolm: appreciated, thank you11:55
poelcatwhat are the next steps with the "QA Board"?11:56
* poelcat saw his name mentioned last week on the scrollback :)11:56
wwoodswhat about it? I should make the decision public but I've been distracted11:56
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wwoodsit's really just codifying the de facto current QA decision-making process11:58
wwoodsI'll make sure I post to fedora-test-list about it11:58
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wwoodsanything else?12:03
f13I'm AFK the next 2 days, back for most of Monday, and then at OLS the rest of next week12:04
wwoodswhee! good to know12:04
wwoodswill you be around for the meeting, if we need you?12:04
jlaskaf13: any big ticket QA-related items you'll need traction on in your absence?12:04
f13maybe?  I'm really not sure what OLS will bring me12:04
f13jlaska: beating hard on rawhide / snapshots we make of alpha tag is essentially it12:05
poelcatf13: releng meeting canceled next week?12:05
wwoodsfair 'nuff12:05
f13I'm making up full blowin pungi trees for testing today12:05
f13poelcat: I'll be there for Monday12:05
f13also I'll make sure that people know how to make pungi trees and mash output in my absense12:05
f13potentially in PHX for full sharing.12:05
jlaskaf13: good thinking, that'd be much appreciated12:05
wwoodsawesome, thanks12:10
wwoodsokay, I'm gonna call it and get me some lunch12:10
* f13 too12:10
wwoodsmail to -test-list will follow that12:10
wwoodsthanks, folks12:10
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-!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs meeting15:00
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-!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs meeting -- agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings15:01
sticksterRoll call!15:01
* ianweller 15:02
* spevack is just an hour early for the fedora emea meeting :)15:03
ianwellerhell of a meeting, so it seems. ;))15:03
* spevack wants to write a document entitled "how to be snarky in 8 easy steps"15:03
sticksterspevack: You just did it in 1, my friend15:03
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* jsmith sneaks in15:04
* stickster gives 60 seconds for straggler15:04
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-!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs meeting -- agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings -- Release Notes15:05
sticksterDid people get a chance to read my recent brain dump to the list?15:05
nim-nimI'll be in and out nearby if you need me15:05
sticksterand http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00024.html15:06
sticksterLet me give you the big picture first15:07
sticksterRelease Notes are *IMPORTANT*15:07
sticksterWe have the best ones in the business.15:07
sticksterThe IRC ops use them *constantly* to help people15:07
sticksterAnd they're at risk for F10 if we don't start doing work now.15:08
sticksterWe basically need several things:15:08
stickster1. Update responsibility list for beats15:09
stickster2. Revamp build process15:09
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sticksterWho can take the lead on flushing the beat ownership?  That is, finding out if the person listed as a beat owner is still doing the job, and then updating our ownership record so we can find new people?15:11
* jsmith is happy to help out with build process 15:11
sticksterjsmith: Noted, awesome!15:11
stickster#1 is a simpler but just as important task15:11
ianwelleri don't think i can commit to very many things right now until i figure out my work load at school when it starts in a month :(15:11
sticksterianweller: Understood.15:11
* stickster realizes our attendance is light, and the people here right now can't do all the work. Part of this is "for the record."15:12
ianwellerfor the record, get to work, people who aren't here. /me shakes fist15:12
sticksterthat's one way to motivate :-D15:12
sticksterTypically, mether ends up coming in and revamping all the release notes at the last minute because beat writers aren't there to do the work. The *concept* is strong. FWN proves it every week.15:13
sticksterWe need to execute the same strategy well, since we started the doggone concept.15:13
sticksterOK, 'nuff said. jsmith, thanks for the offer of help for the build process, I'm going to take you up on it.15:14
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sticksterjsmith: Along those lines, I need help scoping the project and editing/entering milestones and tickets in Trac that are sensible and will help us track the work.15:14
jsmithOK... I'll do what I can.15:15
jsmithHaven't ever done much with trac before, but I'm happy to learn15:15
sticksterjsmith: It's dead simple.15:15
sticksterjsmith: Let's take this offline and try and do a little bit either after this meeting, or agree on a scheduled time15:15
jsmithOK, sounds good15:15
stickster(at your convenience of course)15:15
quaidoi amigos15:15
sticksterAnything further on Release Notes?15:16
sticksterquaid: ^^  "Danger Will Robinson" message proceeding.15:16
sticksterOh lord.15:16
-!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs meeting -- agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings -- Project triage15:17
sticksterquaid: I hand the gavel to you sir15:17
* quaid up on the buffer now15:17
quaidtriage ... as in?15:17
sticksterTwo things immediately came to mind for me:15:17
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stickster(1) Bugs in bugzilla, some languishing. Are the owned by people who can/will take care of them?15:18
quaidah, hmm15:18
stickster(2) More generally, project progress.  Compare and contrast FDP in 2003 to FDP in 2008. Are we achieving what we should as an official subproject?15:19
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quaidheh, yeah15:19
quaidso, on the first15:19
quaidwe need a triage effort on just that, yeah15:20
* quaid battling sudden ennui15:20
* stickster dumps link here for reference: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&product=Fedora+Documentation&version=&component=&query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=MODIFIED&long_desc_type=allwordssubstr&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&fixed_in_type=allwo15:21
buggbot<http://tinyurl.com/59lw78> (at bugzilla.redhat.com)15:21
sticksteroh criminy15:21
stickstersorry :-D15:21
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sticksterThank you buggbot15:21
sticksterI spent about three hours or so a couple weekends back clearing out about half the bugs in my queue, which was useful15:22
quaidwhat about making next week's meeting a working meeting to triage bugs?15:23
sticksterI'm down with that, anyone else available to help?"15:23
jds2001did i hear you guys need triage?? :)15:23
sticksterjds2001: heh15:23
sticksterjds2001: We need people.15:24
sticksterjds2001: Hey wait... YOU'RE people!!!15:24
nim-nimjds2001: and fonts :p15:24
quaidjds2001: I was hesitating to ask, but take a look at that buggbot URL above to see the scope of the problem :)15:24
sticksterquaid: In fairness, both these topics belong on the fedora-docs-list.  But I had spammed the list enough this week and didn't want to overdo it.15:25
quaidok, here, I'll email that next week meeting is bug triage15:25
quaidoh carp15:25
* quaid realized he probably won't be available next week15:26
jds2001it's unlikely that I can make most of these - I'm stretched pretty thin with $DAYJOB right now15:26
sticksterjds2001: we were 1/2 kidding anyway, do not be troubled15:26
quaidbut the triaging concepts will help15:26
jds2001take as evidence that they had me working 1 week after being operated on :)15:26
quaidin terms of what is still viable, etc.15:26
* quaid mumbles about "they"15:27
sticksterquaid: Here's a directly applicable issue -- how long is our timeline for getting new contributors, via the stuff you're doing with Seneca?15:27
jds2001if you need help (and have documentation about helping with the documentation :) ), I'm sure we'd be happy to15:27
quaidI don't think it meshes well with F10 early work :)15:27
sticksterWhat is the date by which we would expect to see people coming in to Docs, and how many do you think that will be?15:27
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quaidok, like this -- upwards of 25 coming in to Fedora, but we can't guarantee the interest just within Docs; some may want to embed deeper in other areas with Docs as the tie-back15:28
quaidthat is, these are (as usual) self-assigning entities :)15:28
quaidour tasks list is a strong part of that15:28
quaidI set the goal of having tasks updated by early August15:29
quaidso we have a chance to get the Seneca wiki updated with links etc. throughout August15:29
quaidand Sep is when classes start15:29
quaidthe goal then is to get ppl involved ASAP, right within the first weeks15:29
quaidso by end of Sep, fairly full involvement as a partial component of classwork15:29
quaidby Jan, all involvement == classwork (that is the co-op, work experience part of the class)15:30
quaidhow does that mesh with other timelines?15:30
sticksterAlpha is August 5. Beta is end of August iirc, and right now F10 final is still pegged for 29 Oct.15:30
sticksterquaid: But all of those dates I just gave are not meaningful unless we know that someone(s) in that group will come in to help with our particular Docs targets.15:31
sticksteri.e. help with relnote beat wrangling15:31
sticksterwith IG updates15:31
quaidI can reckon that, yes, someone will15:31
sticksterwith wiki gardening15:31
quaidI'm just saying it's hard to predict exact numbers :)15:32
quaidbut this is partially up to us15:32
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sticksterSure, but even two people would be about twice as many as we've had15:32
quaidif our task list is "relnotes, IG, wiki gardening"15:32
quaidthen guess what people will be doing?15:32
sticksterright on.15:32
quaidyeah, so let's be careful about task scope; maybe be more granular in just those three areas?15:32
sticksteryes, agreed.15:32
quaidand put all the other work (Sec Guide, User Guide, Admin Guide) as good for $later15:33
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sticksterThe other issue, project status is... probably a timesuck in this meeting.15:34
sticksterSo I'm sorry I put it on there. I'll raise it on the list.15:34
quaidhmm, ok15:34
quaidlooks like I'm not on booth duty on Wed at 1900, I'll just make sure Jack or Greg don't pull me in to some interesting discussion :)15:35
* quaid hopes there is good wifi at OSCON :/15:35
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fugolinisorry but my internet connection didn't work15:35
fugoliniis there someone?15:35
fugoliniFAmSCo meeting15:36
quaidfugolini: in 24 minutes15:36
quaidDocs currently15:36
fugoliniops sorry15:36
quaidok, so, bugs ... OK to do a working meeting next week15:36
jsmithWorks for me... I won't be here :-(15:37
quaidand in the meantime, recruit heavily for beats15:37
quaidblog blog blog and so on15:37
sticksterquaid: Yeah, I have a blog post open for it too.15:38
quaideach of us here needs to do recruiting across the board15:38
sticksterlet's double up15:38
stickstertriple, even.15:38
quaidand track that progress on Docs/Beats/15:38
* stickster can't find beat assignment page... later.15:39
* stickster motions to move on15:39
* jsmith seconds the motion15:39
quaidI'm about to have to disappear15:40
quaiddo we have anything else on the agend?  or other biz?15:40
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sticksterodfpy and python-mwlib packages.15:41
sticksterThese give us the opportunity to turn MediaWiki into DocBook. About as effective as moin's was.15:41
sticksterWhich is to say, not awesome, but definitely passable.15:41
* stickster also notes that MW is extensible in that we can mark extra tags.15:41
sticksterI wonder why we don't get a Simplified DocBook XML tagset available in MW and use it.15:42
sticksterThen python-mwlib and odfpy could product X/HTML, ODT, and (later) PDF on demand15:42
sticksterIf ricky, ianweller, mmcgrath were listening in, they might be interested in such a thing.15:43
sticksterI don't know if quaid is still here or not.15:44
sticksteroh crikey.... eof15:45
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jsmithI like the idea... just have no idea on implementation details15:45
sticksterjsmith: Basically, if it can be done with Python, then our Web geniuses like the folks above, and lmacken, G, and others could build an interface that would pump out the doc from the site.15:46
sticksterAnd our doc editing would basically all become editing on MediaWiki.15:46
sticksterHowever, that doesn't necessarily work for a couple guides like the Release Notes that need to be available in the build system, have really strict markup, etc.15:47
sticksterBut it would work for the vast majority of other stuff.15:47
sticksterAnyway, worth a thought.15:48
* herlo is late15:48
sticksterherlo: Just read the above, we figured everything out.15:48
sticksterPeace in the Middle East at last!  Aaahh.15:48
herloif I was in MDT it would have worked actually15:49
herlostickster: w00t! about time that happened.  I thought we'd never have peace again!15:49
* stickster gonna close the meeting unless someone has something further.15:49
sticksterOK, I'll drop a log to the wiki and the list.  If I have time I'll write a summary too15:51
sticksterjsmith: herlo: ianweller: thanks guys15:51
jsmithstickster: No worries15:51
herlok, well I'll read through it when its posted and give any feedback I can15:52
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Milanitohi Gaaruto15:55
bochechahi Milanito15:55
Milanitohi BobJensen15:55
Milanitohi bochecha15:55
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Milanitohi nihed15:57
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Milanitohelle fugolini15:57
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fugolinihi Milanito15:59
fcrippahi :-)15:59
Milanitohi fcrippa15:59
ianwellerlots of "hi"s.16:00
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fabian_aWelcome everybody.  Let's have Fedora Ambassadors Meeting EMEA. It's 20.00 UTC16:00
* spevack is here16:01
Milanitolets have it16:01
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fabian_ai guess a lot of ambassadors are around16:01
fabian_alet's start...please state your wiki name please (aka roll call)16:01
spevackMax Spevack16:02
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spevackstickster: hi!16:02
-!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Ambassadors EMEA16:02
rscWell, wiki name? User:robert16:02
fabian_astickster: thanks16:02
spevackI love seeing all these people here!16:02
* stickster didn't clean up well after himself, sorry16:02
sticksterUh oh, we left the coffee pot on, too.16:02
sticksterHoly moley, I wish this was the Docs meeting :-D16:03
fabian_aJust a reminder. We'll still follow our meeting protocol to make this meeting quick and efficient. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRCHowTo#Protocol . Thank you16:03
red_alertI wish there were always so many ppl at our meetings ;)16:03
fabian_asorry, wiki name is not correct anymore but good to see that most attendees can remember the old style16:04
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fabian_aNow, please open our meeting page at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Meetings/2008-07-16 for the agenda16:05
fabian_a1. News from  FAmSCo16:05
fabian_ai would like to pass the ball to fugolini because I was off the during the last month16:05
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fugoliniThank you16:06
spevackafter fugolini, i will say a few words16:06
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fabian_aspevack: thank you16:06
fugolinii don't want to discuss about budget16:06
fugolinipersonally i want only to underline the importance to have feedback from the community to better adress our work16:07
fugoliniwe discussed about the local situations, and i think it would be a great thing to know what you need and what you want to see from FAmSCo16:07
fugolinijust this. eof16:07
fabian_aspevack, please16:08
spevackI'd like to add a little bit to what fugolini is saying.  First of all,16:08
spevackI think everyone in EMEA community should be very proud of themselves16:08
spevackbecause you are setting an example for how to run an Ambassadors program in a large continent with many different languages16:09
spevackand it is wonderful work.16:09
spevackFrom the FAMSCo perspective, I want to mention two things:16:09
spevack1) We are in the process of making sure that we have a list of all the events that will take place from September - November16:09
spevackso please make sure, if you have an event, or you know about an event, that you add it to the page16:10
spevack2) FAMSCo will be making another contribution to Fedora EMEA e.V. in August -- not sure what the exact amount will be yet, but probably 1500 - 2000 EUR16:10
spevackfabian_a: should I talk more about Fedora EMEA e.v. now, or later?16:11
fabian_awe can talk later about Fedora EMEA16:11
spevackok, then as far as FAMSCo, that is all for me.  EOF.  Any questions or comments?16:11
fabian_aok, next16:12
fabian_akital: would you like to tell us something your work for the Ambassadors Membership  Verification Service?16:13
spevackkital: your work on that is *excellent* :)16:13
spevackthank you so much16:13
kitalthanks for the flowers16:14
kitalwait i had i had 227 Konversations since Linuxtag16:14
kitalwe had 148 Requests for membership16:15
fabian_akital: thanks16:15
bochechasorry if I am a bit late on this, but what exactly is this membership verification service ?16:16
kitalbochecha: this is simple the process to approve and guide new Ambassadors into the Probation Period and Membership16:17
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fabian_aanything else about membership verification? questions?16:17
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* fcrippa_ is back... (sorry, umts connection....)16:18
fabian_anext point...events16:18
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spevackbochecha: kital has done excellent work in helping to automate this process, and build infrastructure around it16:18
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fabian_aLUG Radio Live?16:19
spevackThis is a comparatively small event.16:20
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spevackI am giving one of the "keynote" speeches.16:20
spevackit will be similar to the speech I gave at LinuxTag during our FUDCon16:20
spevackbecause that message -- of how we build our community and prioritize the decisions that we make -- is one we are trying to spread16:20
spevackI was hoping that JonathanRoberts would be able to attend the event, but it didn't work out.16:20
spevackSo there will only be a few other Red Hat people there, who are in the UK.16:21
spevackbut I will be representing Fedora16:21
spevackand hoping to recruit a few new people to the project16:21
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spevackmostly, we are going to that event because the organizers asked me to speak.16:21
fabian_aspevack: thanks for the details16:22
fabian_aFrOSCon 2008?16:22
spevackI will write an event report for Fedora Planet and ambassadors list16:22
* spevack looks at red_alert :)16:22
RodrigoPadulahi guys,16:22
RodrigoPadulafamsco meeting ?16:22
spevackhi RodrigoPadula: Fedora EMEA meeting, actually16:23
fabian_aRodrigoPadula: yes16:23
fabian_aRodrigoPadula: no, ambassadors meeting16:23
red_alertme? uhm...I think there's nothing new on FrOSCon that's on on the mailing list. I hope the other organizers are doing something too ;)16:23
spevackRodrigoPadula: ping fugolini in #fedora-mktg and he'll tell you about FAMSCo16:24
spevackred_alert: ok, so let's talk about what needs to be done.16:24
spevackwhat needs to be done?16:24
red_alertI won't be able to attend the event as I announced so I was hoping for the other owners (spevack and romal) to take over16:24
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spevackred_alert: I missed your announcement, I'm sorry.16:24
spevackso, what needs to be done?  We know that we have a speaking slot.16:25
red_alertyou wrote the list what's needed yourself ;) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/FrOSCon/FrOSCon2008#Needed16:25
spevacki believe that we need to figure out what to do about some swag for the event.16:25
spevackred_alert: obviously I am a bit confused tonight :)16:25
spevackok, so mostly the needs are swag16:26
red_alertI think you definately need an accomodation before anything else ;)16:26
spevackred_alert: yes, that is true :)16:26
spevackI wanted to ask in this meeting, either Gerold or kital, if we can make some shirts from a company here that we have used before?  tshirts, maybe?16:26
spevackI would like to pay for them from Fedora EMEA budget, and use them for various events16:26
spevackbut I do not have the contacts with the companies.  and maybe other folks do?16:27
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spevackkital: go ahead!16:27
spevackplease! :)16:27
kitali will make it!16:27
spevackkital: ok, I will send you email and we can figure out design, quantity, sizes, etc.?16:27
spevackok.  Great.16:28
spevackThen I think we are mostly ok for FrOSCon, at least for this meeting.16:28
spevackkital: i will follow up with you tomorrow, ok?16:28
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fabian_athank you guys16:29
spevackfabian_a: you wanted to talk about Open Expo?16:29
fabian_ain September after FUDCon the autumn edition of the annual Swiss open source event named OpenExpo will take place at Winterthur16:30
fabian_ait's a small event with around 1000 visitors16:31
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fabian_afor detail check http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/OpenExpo/OpenExpo2008_Zurich16:31
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fabian_aif you want to join us, please drop me a line...16:32
GeroldKame wants to drop the line; I have 6 OLPC for you for OpenExpo16:32
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GeroldKaand also from now until then with a small interrupt of two weeks16:33
spevackGeroldKa: where did you get 6 OLPCs??? that is incredible16:33
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spevackGeroldKa: hello, by the way :)16:33
GeroldKaand also sorry for late I worked until now16:33
GeroldKahi there max16:33
red_alertjust as a sidenote: we don't have space at openexpo for 6 olpc16:34
fabian_awith 6 olpcs we will ahve a problem with the space at ypur so called booth16:34
spevackmaybe we don't bring all 6 to Open Expo :)16:34
GeroldKait`s up to you, but I have them borrowed (also for OpenExpo)16:34
GeroldKaif you don't want them ...16:35
fabian_abut it's good to know that this machines are only 100 km away16:35
GeroldKaOK, no doubt16:35
GeroldKaI found some other guys who want to have them at that time16:35
spevackfabian_a: FAMSCo will allocate official budget for OpenExpo in August, when FAMSCo makes all the budget planning for Q3 (September - November).  But you know this since you are in FAMSCo ;)16:35
spevackbut it is an important event16:35
spevackjan wildeboer from red hat will be there16:35
spevackand several other Red Hat people16:35
spevackthere will be meetings about Open Standards, I think, that Jan will be in16:36
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spevackone of the things that I am going to try to do for all of us soon is get a list from Andrea Schneider of all the events that Red Hat Marketing is going to in EMEA, so that we can always know when there is overlap with Fedora Events.16:36
fabian_ain September there will be a lot of events...FUDCon, OpenExpo, PCL, GITEX, and on and on16:38
fabian_asome more about events?16:38
spevack! (but MrTom first)16:39
MrTomabout the events, what is also important is to keep up to date the pages of the wiki. And I know for sure that it is a very difficult exercice.16:40
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MrTomhowever it helps a lot to know who / what /when / why when FAMSCO is allocating budgets to your events, so please keep this in mind. Up to date pages is not useless at all16:41
spevackI want to quickly mention FUDCon16:41
spevackI will be updating the page in great detail tomorrow or Friday, before I leave for UK and LUG Radio Live16:42
spevackBut we know that it will be in Czech Republic (Brno), September 5-7.  Saturday Sep. 6 will be the most "important" day.16:42
spevackAlso I will be able to give hotel information soon.  It seems very inexpensive, especially if people share a room.16:43
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spevackMore information next week... but I hope that many people can go.  We will do one FUDCon in EMEA every year.16:43
spevackThis year in Czech Republic.16:43
spevackNext year, somewhere else! :)16:43
spevackalso, there will be special FUDCon tshirts.  EOF16:43
GeroldKaI prefer Switzerland next year16:44
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red_alert+1 ;)16:44
GeroldKaI also offered you University of Basel as Event Place16:44
sticksterAny time16:45
* stickster hits wrong channel, sorry16:45
spevackAnd maybe next year we will do that.  The Czech Repbulic was chosen specially this year because it is very important that we involve the Red Hat engineers in that country more deeply in Fedora community.  When we plan 2009 FUDCon EMEA, we will discuss all options for location.16:45
spevackGeroldKa: any place we can get a relationship with a university is very interesting to me.16:46
spevackwe will be at a university in Brno also16:46
red_alertI'd also know a company in Switzerland who'd help us with some money if we'd do it here. eof16:46
fugoliniI think it would be better to chose a city near a cheap airport, I think we have to make a list of chear airline16:46
fugolini*cheap airlines by country and the countries they cover16:46
fcrippafugolini: +116:46
spevackfugolini: great idea16:46
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fugolinie.g. For Basel a flight in october cost 400€16:47
GeroldKaand to Brno?16:47
fugolinithis means that if i book the flight in september it will cost 500€16:47
GeroldKaor Zurich?16:47
GeroldKaor Stuttgart?16:48
fugoliniGeroldKa: Brno, direct flight 400, i think i'll take a cheap flight16:48
fugolinifrom Wien or Prague16:48
spevackI also will travel to Paris on August 2 to meet with MrTom and as many people from the Fedora-fr community as we can gather.16:49
MrTom(about 15)16:49
spevackI am looking forward to that, because it will allow us to plan and discuss things in that country in great detail16:49
GeroldKaits 500 kms16:49
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spevackEOF from me16:52
fabian_aanything else about the upcoming FUDCon?16:52
Milanitowe are very glad you are coming spevack16:52
spevackfabian_a: nothing else right now.  I will email ambassadors-list when i have more updates16:52
spevackMilanito: me too!16:53
fabian_aspevack: thanks16:53
red_alertspevack: don't forget to mention the weekly meetings about fudcon ;)16:53
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spevackright.  we have a weekly planning meeting on Tuesdays at 13:00 UTC in #fedora-meeting16:53
spevackfor FUDCon Brno16:54
spevackred_alert: thank you :)16:54
fabian_anow...FAD EMEA16:55
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fabian_aspevack or red_alert please16:55
red_alertwell, we wanted to get an idea of what people think16:56
spevackred_alert: you go ahead :)16:56
red_alerthow they liked/disliked about the last FAD EMEA near Basel at the German/Swiss border16:57
red_alertplace, duration, topics, lodging, fun/fringe events, food, everything16:57
red_alertin order to make it even better this year, we need some feedback16:57
red_alertso please go to the event site that max posted above and tell us16:57
red_alertwe'd also like to hear ideas about how to spend the budget...on travel, lodging, fun activities, ...16:58
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red_alertif you have an idea in what city we could do it and maybe have good reasons to prefer that city - tell us16:59
red_alertwhat did I forget, spevack?16:59
spevackthere are several questions and items to comment on in the wiki page.  feel free to leave your comments.16:59
spevackred_alert: you got it all16:59
red_alertquestions / comments right now?17:00
GeroldKaI thought you want to "rename my Baby" Max17:00
GeroldKaas: Fedora Activity Day17:00
spevackGeroldKa: that is a separate idea, but it also uses the FAD acronym.  I haven't had time to pursue that idea yeat17:01
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spevackyou had a comment?17:02
* wonderer1 raises hand ;-)17:02
MrTomabout spending the budget, it always remains difficult to know what to spend it on. There used to have a discussion about financing lodging and not travel, so as every people are equal in the eyes of famso, however we are not equal in term of distance / travel and i think that we shloud finance traveling17:02
wonderer1may I something ask. maybe I d17:03
spevackwonderer1: go ahead17:03
MrTomso as to fight againt inequalities among us. Financing travel for the farthest pple, and lodging for the closest.17:03
spevackwonderer1: you go, then I will respond to MrTom with my thoughts, and then see what other people think17:03
wonderer1maybe i did'nt get a / the remindermail to this meeting. Or isnt there such a mail lets say hald a day before..?!17:04
spevackwonderer1: that was a typo, a second mail was sent out fixing it.17:04
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spevackwonderer1: sorry for any confusion!17:04
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wonderer1spevack: Ok. because I did'nt get yet any Announcement Mail today. I think several days ago some goes over the list. Baut "today" (lets say "last reminder" ... I will check this next time ;-) Thanks.17:06
spevackMrTom: I tend to agree with you.  Speaking in general, when I manage the Fedora budget on the whole, I try to make sure that budget goes to the people who need it the most.  I also try to make sure it is generally balanced, but if one person gets more support than another, it doesn't bother me as long as everyone is getting as much help as we can give them, and as they need.17:06
spevackBut I do not want to dictate policy for all of you.17:06
spevackI think that it is necessary for us to first have a full balance of the money that Fedora EMEA e.V. has.17:06
spevackwe can add to that the money we know will come to Fedora EMEA e.V. from Red Hat and Fedora Project17:07
spevackand then we can decide as a group how to spend it.17:07
spevackone of the things I will also do in the next week or two is give a full Treasurer report for Fedora EMEA e.V.  I have all the documents, I just need to go through them.17:07
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MrTomor maybe decide of an amount of money to give to people to help them to come, and let them decide how to give it away17:08
wonderer1is maybe there a statistic how much % on small / middle / big events was spend on travel, accomondation, food & drinks, merchandising, Fedore CD/DVD, etc.?17:08
fabian_awonderer1: can you please follow the meeting protocol http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRCHowTo#Protocol tnhanks17:09
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GeroldKaMrTom, I also thought about that idea17:09
GeroldKabut I personally follow the item17:09
GeroldKathe same amount for every attendee17:10
GeroldKaor at best pay the same amount for everyone for the room17:10
GeroldKathat fair to everybody and als transparent to everybody17:10
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spevackwonderer1: we have some metrics.  For LinuxTag, we have very detailed breakdowns of hotel cost, travel cost, food cost, etc.17:11
spevackfor smaller events, we tend to give some budget to the event organizer and let that person decide how best to spend it17:11
spevackLinuxTag and FUDcon are special cases17:11
spevackGeroldKa: I think transparency is the key.  As long as we are transparent about where the money goes, people can make comments.  I believe that with the Fedora Budget the last 2.5 years (or however long I have been doing Fedora), we are the most transparent of any Linux Distribution in the world, and we will keep doing this.  Also with Fedora EMEA e.V. -- I am just a little bit behind :)17:13
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wonderer1spaveck, yes thats what I mean. Can there be made some matrix as "if planing try 10% for boothrent, 25-30% travel, etc." so someone is new to that (espacially Ambassadors) can plan that. Then ther would maybe not so often be a discussion or confusion.17:15
wonderer1I do planning on Europewide Events for several years17:15
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wonderer1that is often planning on a small team. At bigger events that could help i Think. Also what MrTom says "on what i can spend wich amounT" etc. can better be planned17:16
spevackwonderer1: those are all good points.  I can go back to the linuxTag budget and see what the percentages were.17:17
wonderer1the Budget Plan someone gives to Fedora "I need xyz for this Event" could better verified and compared.17:17
spevackthat will give some idea17:17
spevackEOF from me too.  i will get back to you17:17
* fcrippa 's laptop battery is near to be dead... another 5-10 minutes...17:17
spevackfabian_a: what else?17:18
GeroldKanext year, we have to pay for booth (at Linuxtag btw.)17:18
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* kital has to go17:18
fabian_ai guess we are done for today...17:18
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fabian_awe skip the "open floor"17:19
spevackGeroldKa: We will factor that into budget17:19
spevackGeroldKa: for next year's linuxtag17:19
spevackGeroldKa: and you and i will plan in advance with andrea and marion :)_17:19
spevackfabian_a: I just want to say thank you for running the meeting, and thank you to everyone for coming!17:20
fabian_aanything else? Any more questions or issues before we close this meeting?17:20
* wonderer1 claps hands17:20
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fcrippacan we consider 5-6-7 of September "official" and "definitive" date for FUDCon?17:21
spevackfcrippa: yes17:21
fcrippa(just in time :-)17:21
spevackfcrippa: we have space booked at university in Brno for those dates17:22
fcrippaspevack: great!17:22
fabian_aacc. to spevack the date is fixed17:22
red_alertreminder for everyone: don't forget to post your ideas about the upcoming FAD on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAD/FADEMEA2008 - we need your opinions!17:22
fcrippafugolini: we can organize our trip17:22
spevackfabian_a: thank you!17:22
fabian_aFedora Ambassadors Meeting EMEA 2008-07-16 has been adjourned. Next meeting in August 2008.17:22
fugolinifcrippa: perfect, i'll contect you soon17:22
red_alertthanks everyone for the participation, that's been the best meeting ever :)17:22
fugolinifabian_a: thank you17:22
fugolinisee you soon17:23
MEPthx fabian_a17:23
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fabian_athanks to all, see you next month17:23
fcrippa...or next week for fudcon weekly meeting ;-)17:24
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Matias_Arghay reunion de fedora-latam?21:23
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